UK plans age verification for porn websites from 2018

You're right that parents need to learn to better control what their kids access, I think things like violence is probably worse. However, things like mobile phones and wifi hotspots how are you going to stop kids from accessing things anyway when they are out and about - unless there is some sort of verification process for mature content (i.e. not just porn, but violence and so on)?
 
There you go - so I don't understand why people are so bothered, if it's that easy then go for it.

Hacking wifi isn't hard, it just takes time. A lot of the routers that ISPs supply (as well as many other wifi devices) have vulnerabilities and the admins don't lock things down properly, especially home users :/

We have moved on from the WEP days at least, but it's still not that secure.
 
For some people - for me, and many others it is an irrelevance. I'm sure most people use the internet 99% of the time for value rather than just a bit of perving... but perhaps I'm wrong. Quite sad really.

i'm simply stating that given the size of the industry, especially online, that it's evidently being supported by a "customer" base, and to call it a small section of the internet is incorrect.
 
i'm simply stating that given the size of the industry, especially online, that it's evidently being supported by a "customer" base, and to call it a small section of the internet is incorrect.

Ok point taken. I guess I meant it is just 1 aspect of the internet, whereby it can offer and does offer people much more on a daily basis than just that. But yes, okay, I accept what you're saying.
 
How will restricting some pornography affect your freedom?

It's not about having my access to pornography restricted. In fact, as I stated earlier (perhaps not very well) this won't actually restrict my access - nor the access of anyone but those that can't use Google. What it does do is open the door for further profiling and tracking of anyone accessing the internet.

I do accept that mild pornography is probably pretty tame compared to what I'm sure exists on there (i.e. violent sexual scenes, exploitation, "revenge porn", as well as violent videos showing death and horrific life altering events) - and I get that people should be free - but this newfound freedom of the internet has proven that humans have no self control. Now that all this information is so readily available people seek out more and more extreme things - I don't know if it is entirely healthy. I had the unfortunate experience of watching a real death on the internet (African militia casually shooting villagers, it was graphic, and so offhand in their execution of men and women) - it really has stuck with me and made me wish I had never seen it (this was over 10 years ago when all this stuff was still relatively novel). Having seen death in real life, somehow seeing it on the internet made it so casual and easy, I can see how this can be very emotionally scarring for some people. We never had access to this extreme level of graphic detail before. Now, this does not have to be a bad thing too I accept, but humans are poor at controlling themselves, and we sometimes are too carefree for our own good. Some people have no self control either and keep seeking out the next worse thing.

I agree that there are lots of harmful things out there - on the internet and off it. There are also restrictions placed on some of that stuff (e.g. age verification to buy alcohol and cigarettes, though once you "look old enough" that is no longer the case). Unfortunately the restrictions and laws placed on things are often not based on evidence and instead politically or ideologically motivated.

Data privacy laws do exist, but surely with a warrant and relevant permissions they would be overturned regardless of terrorism no? Surely you wouldn't mind a bad guy, or a gang be apprehended with all this evidence available?

I actually have no issue with my phone lines being tapped, internet snooped, etc etc if it is a targeted response/investigation. I accept that is required for the authorities to do their jobs. My issue is with blanket surveillance with little or no safeguards on the gathered data - which is exactly what the Snooper's Charter brought in. This is another step in further profiling users and generating huge datasets with little or no provision for protecting that data.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to live in a world where we all don't need to be profiled, or have data protection laws, and so on. What's the answer if we don't do this? Also, how is your life directly being impacted by what is being proposed? I'm not saying you're wrong, and I clearly have missed something, so apologies for being a bit slow, but I'm quite happy to admit I'm clueless about this. However, all I need is some pros/cons or a list of things that will explain why chasing this agenda will lead to something really bad. I understand people want to have privacy, because they don't want some of their private thoughts, emails, activities or parts of their lives recorded (whether legitimate or not, legal or not etc...). If you're an average Joe then surely all this will hardly or not even impact you, unless I've missed something (which I think I clearly have). This is more significant if you're a person of influence/celebrity or whatever.

The impact on me is that I'm looking at the recent trends with regards to data privacy and predicting what looks to be a future trend - i.e. our rights and liberties are going to be further eroded. It isn't about this (fairly minor if looked at in isolation) change but it's about the direction things are moving in.

To break things down a little bit about this particular change, see below. I've tried to remove my own subjective bias by not including points about eroding rights/etc/etc.

Pros (including refutation)
Children are protected from seeing sex/extreme porn (refutation: like any of the current internet safeguards that are put in place, it is a trivial job to bypass them if you simply search on google for 5 seconds)

Cons
Encourages users to hand over payment details to sites, i.e. increasing likelihood of fraud.
Creates large unprotected databases of people's personal pornography and sexual interests, which could easily be breached or leaked.

The internet is not always a good tool, look at the photo leaks of celebrities sending private messages to their loved ones (be they "sexy" poses or not). Hence my distancing from social media - not that I send naked selfies (that didn't exist at the time I would have done it!), but the internet is uncontrolled and is a free for all - maybe it needs a bit of it? I don't know. I still see it as a tool and a distraction. I'm quite happy when I go somewhere where there is no internet - doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Like virtually any tool, it can be misused. I'm not against more policing of certain aspects of it but I don't believe that this change is a positive one on that front - or at the very least any extremely minor benefit is massively outweighed by the negative aspects. The internet most certainly is not a free for all as there are plenty of legitimate measures in place already that protect people (IWF for example, until what seemed like an innocuous and effective tool to protect people was re-purposed for something else).

It's interesting that you mentioned the leaked celebrity pictures (and related blackmail) as an example actually. These large, likely unsecured, databases of pornography viewing habits are going to be massive targets for being hacked, leaked and then used to blackmail or embarrass people and intrude into their private lives.

I don't think that whether or not anyone can take or leave social media or the internet has any bearing on the point at hand though. I definitely can't say I'm a big fan of social media and I'm not completely addicted to the internet but everyone is an individual and many people younger than us have grown up having not known anything but the internet to be a massive part of their lives.
 
Don't see a problem with this. :confused:

I very much doubt you'd be willing to hand your credit card details to some shady porn site. Sure, there are a select few 'reputable' sites. But even then, it's a bit of a push!

The age verification thing, I've no problem with and see no reason why it's not a standard thing already.
 
Tarte Francaise said:

I think what you say is reasonable. I guess if there's a way of balancing what is being proposed and what exists already then we'd be in a better place IMO. I think targeting pornography specifically is a little reactionary, but the principle of what they're trying to do I don't think is too damaging - but of course they won't get it right! If they got the balance right following the suggestions you are making that would be start.

People like to find the path of least resistance, they like to try and exploit current systems and procedures to see if they can break things. In fact that's how some of the best inventions/innovations have come about, through the successful "reverse engineering" of processes or controls.

Would people be against a way of securely authenticating your age and details (either via biometrics, or some other authentication method) where data and details are guaranteed to be protected - or as much as possible - to access more mature content, not pornography specifically? If this was done at an ISP or hosting level and if it knew you were an adult you'd get access automatically - I'm talking in the future here - but if you were under age you would be blocked. Would that automated solution be acceptable?

Whilst I'm not against freedom, and I think that freedom is something that is very different for different people, countries, populations and cultures - people do need a bit of protection from themselves. And I don't just mean Darwin award stuff, but people think they can handle certain things (be it graphic content, or seeing blood from just a nosebleed) when actually they cannot... though how do they learn if they don't experience these things?? It's tough.

Maybe we should just let it all be free for all and let society judge for itself and self moderate? I don't think we are mature enough for that personally. However it is an interesting situation.

I very much doubt you'd be willing to hand your credit card details to some shady porn site. Sure, there are a select few 'reputable' sites. But even then, it's a bit of a push!

The age verification thing, I've no problem with and see no reason why it's not a standard thing already.

No but it's not something I'm particularly bothered about regardless. I won't feel I have lost anything.
 
No but it's not something I'm particularly bothered about regardless. I won't feel I have lost anything.

Yet, it's obvious this won't work and they know it, so the justification to start censoring sites will occur just like with pirate bay/other distribution platforms... then they have no option but to start going after VPNs and wholesale blocking incoming foreign sites.

Then they start wondering when it will be acceptable to start hitting away at anti-government rhetoric as "enemies of the people", saboteurs and the like... we're only instruments away from wondering if it would have just been faster to capitulate 70 years ago.
 
You're right that parents need to learn to better control what their kids access, I think things like violence is probably worse. However, things like mobile phones and wifi hotspots how are you going to stop kids from accessing things anyway when they are out and about - unless there is some sort of verification process for mature content (i.e. not just porn, but violence and so on)?
You stop kids from accessing things like that by not giving them unfettered access to the internet. Children don't *need* smartphones. They don't *need* internet-connected tablets. Unfortunately society has put pressure on them to *want* them so as not to be excluded from their cliques. Sure, you can't stop them from using someone else's devices but this has always been the case -- in my day, even if one kid didn't have access to an adult magazine stash at home they'd definitely have had a friend who did!

As a parent you have to take responsibility for your children, but today's society prefers to push that responsibility elsewhere. This legislation should be easy to pass because most parents don't have a clue about nor want to know about how to configure their devices to filter content. They'd much prefer it to be done automatically, even though it starts the ball rolling on the process to control more of what's available on the internet than just pornography.
 
Even if you disagree with the implemention, the principle is sound - porn will wreck havoc on generations of kids who will have warped views of women - imagine being a 13 year old jerking off to women with enormous boobs and planetoid butts, then having that as the psychological 'standard' for women - they would never be attracted to the women they meet in every day life, and their penises would be desensitized from all the masturbation. They'd be nervous wrecks in bed.
 
You stop kids from accessing things like that by not giving them unfettered access to the internet. Children don't *need* smartphones. They don't *need* internet-connected tablets. Unfortunately society has put pressure on them to *want* them so as not to be excluded from their cliques. Sure, you can't stop them from using someone else's devices but this has always been the case -- in my day, even if one kid didn't have access to an adult magazine stash at home they'd definitely have had a friend who did!

As a parent you have to take responsibility for your children, but today's society prefers to push that responsibility elsewhere. This legislation should be easy to pass because most parents don't have a clue about nor want to know about how to configure their devices to filter content. They'd much prefer it to be done automatically, even though it starts the ball rolling on the process to control more of what's available on the internet than just pornography.

That's the thing, you see kids everywhere with smartphones - I completely agree with you though.

So the question is how do you educate the parents? Problem is this forum is atypical to society in Britain. Most people wouldn't have a clue and as you say society seems to think it normal to have a Facebook or whatever account - a lot of wifi hotspots now ask you to sign in via twitter or facebook.... i do think it's quite strange to see an 8 year old with a smartphone... but maybe that's just my age showing.

Ah yes, mate's older brother's jazz mags - those were the days! But it was a lot less "hardcore" than some of the stuff that is "normal" now.

I guess because for my generation at least, grew up until late teens without the internet, and mobile phones with internet is a relatively new thing for us so I guess rely on it less than younger generations?? Maybe just me.
 
Freefalle said:
No but it's not something I'm particularly bothered about regardless. I won't feel I have lost anything.

I guess as it's a CC, so pretty secure. But for the sake of knocking one out. I still think I'd rather not hand over my details haha.
 
Even if you disagree with the implemention, the principle is sound - porn will wreck havoc on generations of kids who will have warped views of women - imagine being a 13 year old jerking off to women with enormous boobs and planetoid butts, then having that as the psychological 'standard' for women - they would never be attracted to the women they meet in every day life, and their penises would be desensitized from all the masturbation. They'd be nervous wrecks in bed.

OK Helen Lovejoy :p
 
Would people be against a way of securely authenticating your age and details (either via biometrics, or some other authentication method) where data and details are guaranteed to be protected - or as much as possible - to access more mature content, not pornography specifically? If this was done at an ISP or hosting level and if it knew you were an adult you'd get access automatically - I'm talking in the future here - but if you were under age you would be blocked. Would that automated solution be acceptable?

I'm not against authenticating myself before being able to access certain types of material, in principle - but I am getting rather exasperated by the persistent focus on naked human bodies. I'm also worried that the people who set the trends, the people writing the legislation that ultimately filters down to the likes of you and me - are generally incompetent and don't know anything.

We have this bizarre, useless situation, where someone in power thinks something should be restricted - however they have no real power to restrict, so the people with the information and the actual power - do the very bare minimum to appease them and so all they do is just hammer porn, whilst forgetting about everything else.

This can be demonstrated by the frankly weird way in which google safesearch works;

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So the question is how do you educate the parents?

Uhhhh, the internet. This is why I have almost 0 ******* sympathy for anyone that complains about something they don't know about or can't do these days. You sit there on your phone for 4 hours+ every single damn day gawping at utter **** on facebook and yet your can't use google to find out how to make your children a healthy dinner. You google all the D list celebrities that are oh so important to your life to see what other D list celebrity they happen to be banging that week but you can't google how to put parental controls on your router. You buy your kid a smartphone with the entire internet available to them but don't think its your fault they can look at porn all day long.

Perhaps if people took some vague responsibility for their kids and their upbringing we wouldn't have to make ridiculous attempts to encroach on peoples freedoms. Whos going to pick up the bill when people are using their credit cards to access porn sites and surprise surprise, their details are sold an their money goes missing. I don't think the banks are going to be keen to refund you. Surveillance powers won't stop terrorists. They are not retards, they will just adapt.

If your enemy can only shoot you from 100m away you don't stand 1 mile away, you stand 120 metres away. If their gun gets better you move further back. Terrorists will/are already using end to end encryption. People doing stuff they shouldn't will always find a way to do it. What happened when the US introduced their massive new trucks to stop casualties from IEDs in Afghanistan? They just made bigger IEDs.
 
The government should really not be getting involved with this at all at this level!

Uhhhh, the internet. This is why I have almost 0 ******* sympathy for anyone that complains about something they don't know about or can't do these days. You sit there on your phone for 4 hours+ every single damn day gawping at utter **** on facebook and yet your can't use google to find out how to make your children a healthy dinner. You google all the D list celebrities that are oh so important to your life to see what other D list celebrity they happen to be banging that week but you can't google how to put parental controls on your router. You buy your kid a smartphone with the entire internet available to them but don't think its your fault they can look at porn all day long.

Perhaps if people took some vague responsibility for their kids and their upbringing we wouldn't have to make ridiculous attempts to encroach on peoples freedoms. Whos going to pick up the bill when people are using their credit cards to access porn sites and surprise surprise, their details are sold an their money goes missing. I don't think the banks are going to be keen to refund you. Surveillance powers won't stop terrorists. They are not retards, they will just adapt.

If your enemy can only shoot you from 100m away you don't stand 1 mile away, you stand 120 metres away. If their gun gets better you move further back. Terrorists will/are already using end to end encryption. People doing stuff they shouldn't will always find a way to do it. What happened when the US introduced their massive new trucks to stop casualties from IEDs in Afghanistan? They just made bigger IEDs.

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