Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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ubersonic said:
When the USSR ended various treaties and agreements were arranged, one of which stated NATO would never admit former Warsaw pact countries.

I think this pretty much sums up the whole situation:
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I guess NATO would deny that those agreements existed.

I think what sums up the situation is that NATO expands when democratically elected governments decide they want to join and meet the criteria. Russia expands when it invades and annexes parts of other countries.
 
Even if the far eastern part of Ukraine is annexed it doesn't really strengthen Russia's position. Since the rest of Ukraine would form closer ties to the EU. It's still surrounded by NATO countries.

Russia couldn't even win a naval contenst with Italy, so NATO should be the least of it's worries
 
It's pretty incredible to see people take such an provocative stance on this one.

Do we really want to **** Russia off, ramping up the tension and hurting our relations with them, to stop a few Eastern Ukrainians from having devolution, which apparently is what they want?

It seems totally bizarre and surreal - like threatening Scotland with war if they vote for independence.
 
To be honest NATO should have disbanded after the fall of the USSR not expanded it's arsenal/influence, it's basically the lets beat up Russia club which was fine when Russia had it's own kliq (the Warsaw pact) but since the mid 90's NATO has done nothing positive, it just raises tension with Russia.
 
FoxEye said:
Do we really want to **** Russia off, ramping up the tension and hurting our relations with them, to stop a few Eastern Ukrainians from having devolution, which apparently is what they want?
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That's half the issue we dont want to **** russia off to much, Putin sees the west/nato/EU as weak with bark and no bite. This is probably why he's been as ballsy as he has done the past few months with the Ukraine
 
FoxEye said:
It's pretty incredible to see people take such an provocative stance on this one.

Do we really want to **** Russia off, ramping up the tension and hurting our relations with them, to stop a few Eastern Ukrainians from having devolution, which apparently is what they want?

It seems totally bizarre and surreal - like threatening Scotland with war if they vote for independence.
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The people of Ukraine want to be closer to the EU, the mass protests which started last year have shown that. Russia decided to prevent it by annexing a part of the country and sending troops/fanatics in the other part. The West did nothing other than to react slowly and cautiously to Russia's actions. There's nothing bizarre about these reactions.
 
Windle said:
Ukraine now reportedly taking steps to open up a full NATO application rather than their current non-aligned status. If they get fast tracked entry, will Putin back down? Under NATO articles an attack on one member is an attack on all. Given NATO have now publicly accused Russia of a "blatant violation of Ukraine's sovereignty" and engaging in direct military operations supporting the rebels Ukraine joining NATO would raise the stakes globally significantly.
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This is actually why Russia is acting like it is - the nuclear disarmament treaty with Ukraine actually has some specific wording as to non-nuclear aggression by a nuclear equipped state or state sponsored by a nuclear equipped state as part of the agreement. If Russia was to invade openly then NATO either has to find a way to wiggle out of the agreement or go to war with Russia.
 
ubersonic said:
To be honest NATO should have disbanded after the fall of the USSR not expanded it's arsenal/influence, it's basically the lets beat up Russia club which was fine when Russia had it's own kliq (the Warsaw pact) but since the mid 90's NATO has done nothing positive, it just raises tension with Russia.
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But if NATO disbanded there'd be nothing to stop Putin's tanks rolling into Warsaw and other cities right now. Yes I do think that's what he'd do if he could get away with it. When you think about it, it must be pretty humiliating for Russia watching countries like Poland thrive once they were freed of the Russian yoke, and yet they can't manage anything like as much success.
 
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scorza said:
But if NATO disbanded there'd be nothing to stop Putin's tanks rolling into Warsaw and other cities right now. Yes I do think that's what he'd do if he could get away with it. When you think about it, it must be pretty humiliating for Russia watching countries like Poland thrive once they were freed of the Russian yoke, and yet they can't manage anything like as much success.
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hahaha "Putin's tanks rolling into Warsaw" good one
 
ThestigGT999 said:
hahaha "Putin's tanks rolling into Warsaw" good one
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It's like the cold war never ended for some people :p

Isn't it true today that the US has more military hardware than the rest of the world combined? Including nukes. Especially nukes.

The US is basically the world's sole remaining superpower.
 
FoxEye said:
It's like the cold war never ended for some people :p

Isn't it true today that the US has more military hardware than the rest of the world combined? Including nukes. Especially nukes.

The US is basically the world's sole remaining superpower.
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US has as many active nukes as the rest of the world combined, but Russia in an escalation could attain parity (give or take).

Its kind of scary in some ways - Russia at full strength could turn every inch of the UK into glass a few times over whereas we would struggle to return the favour to more than about 1.5% or so of their country :S
 
ubersonic said:
When the USSR ended various treaties and agreements were arranged, one of which stated NATO would never admit former Warsaw pact countries.

I think this pretty much sums up the whole situation:
Click to expand...

When Russia violated its treaties (in particular in respect of Crimea) those treaties signed with NATO are null and void.
 
FoxEye said:
It's like the cold war never ended for some people :p

Isn't it true today that the US has more military hardware than the rest of the world combined? Including nukes. Especially nukes.

The US is basically the world's sole remaining superpower.
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also the most military installations on foreign soil
 
Rroff said:
US has as many active nukes as the rest of the world combined, but Russia in an escalation could attain parity (give or take).

Its kind of scary in some ways - Russia at full strength could turn every inch of the UK into glass a few times over whereas we would struggle to return the favour to more than about 1.5% or so of their country :S
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Perhaps i'm just too cynical but i doubt any of the nuclear powers, including the UK, is truthful about what they really have.
 
NexusK said:
Perhaps i'm just too cynical but i doubt any of the nuclear powers, including the UK, is truthful about what they really have.
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Wouldn't surprise me however IIRC nuclear non-proliferation treaty signees are fairly well audited. Most of the others for technical reasons won't have significantly more than the claimed numbers - they'd have a hard time hiding the import or production of components, relevant facilities etc.

I would bet though that the US has more active ones than they claim and that Russia probably has less active ones than they make out (though slightly academic as they have significant stockpiles) and I kind of hope our numbers are understated as I feel we are cutting it a little close in comparison to our presence on the world stage.
 
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Rroff said:
the nuclear disarmament treaty with Ukraine actually has some specific wording as to non-nuclear aggression by a nuclear equipped state or state sponsored by a nuclear equipped state as part of the agreement. If Russia was to invade openly then NATO either has to find a way to wiggle out of the agreement or go to war with Russia.
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Actually the treaty only requires NATO to intervene if Ukraine is attacked with nuclear weapons, it was supposed to mean both but a missing or additional comma (can't remember which) has made it nuclear only, something they were quite annoyed about when Crimea kicked off, one of their top politicians even said once the country was in order they would be re-arming with nukes because nobody invades you if you have nukes.
 
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