Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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They do indeed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29003116 doesn't look like Putin plans to stop or care about sanctions until they've carved out a triangle of east/south east Ukraine.

You have to question the effectiveness of future sanctions against a man who is willing to damage his own countries and cronies future prosperity in order to get what he wants.
 
He could be playing a game of brinkmanship to get concessions from the west in the long game that outweigh the cuts in the short term. Though its looking increasingly less like he is playing games.
 
I reckon this will be over soon. Putin isn't even trying to hide what he's doing now and the EU and US are all but saying there's nothing they can do.
 
Massive win for Putin, first the invasion of Crimea goes unpunished and now he will ultimately likely add a portion of East Ukraine under the banner of "the people's will".

NATO and the EU/UN proven to be toothless and Putin can expect his domestic approval ratings to spike.
 
You have to question the effectiveness of future sanctions against a man who is willing to damage his own countries and cronies future prosperity in order to get what he wants.

It rather depends on how much power the Russian Oligarchs still possess. One presumes that a bunch of people who are used to have unrestricted access to the wealth and pleasures of the West based on their stolen money will be increasingly unimpressed at Putin tanking the Russian economy and burning its political ties to the West.
 
I'd say in a certain sense Putin might have actually shot himself in the foot. One of the reason's he's thought to have done all this is is to seize territory to create a 'buffer zone' against NATO. However, I think one of the repercussions of all this will be an expansion of NATO, and a reversal in defence cuts across Europe. Previously neutral country's, like Sweden and Finland are now considering NATO membership, as they've just had it amply proven to them that being 'non-aligned' like Ukraine, isn't going to save you should Putin cast an avaricious eye over a strategic bit of your territory he likes.
 
It rather depends on how much power the Russian Oligarchs still possess. One presumes that a bunch of people who are used to have unrestricted access to the wealth and pleasures of the West based on their stolen money will be increasingly unimpressed at Putin tanking the Russian economy and burning its political ties to the West.

heard something on the news the other day about capital flight from russia and allegedly it stands at around $100 billion for this year so far.
 
So...where are the guys denying Russia have been involved?

Their next step is usually to justify Russia's actions by arguing a US/NATO intervention, and to claim that the victim of Russia's bullying "brought it on themselves".
 
So...where are the guys denying Russia have been involved?

I like to think I keep an open mind, so by all means show me the proof and ill believe it.

NB: proof cannot consist of Obama or Ukraine saying things without any evidence to back them up, or media articles that shown the rebels using equipment that can "only be obtained from Russia" (despite the fact it's lying all over Ukraine in bases and storage depots).
 
I like to think I keep an open mind, so by all means show me the proof and ill believe it.

NB: proof cannot consist of Obama or Ukraine saying things without any evidence to back them up, or media articles that shown the rebels using equipment that can "only be obtained from Russia" (despite the fact it's lying all over Ukraine in bases and storage depots).

That to me sounds like a very closed mind.

Captured Russian soldiers.

Satellite images of Russian tanks and spgs in Ukraine.

Russian conscripts saying they've been told they're to be fighting in Ukraine.

Mothers of Russian soldiers asking for their return from Ukraine.

None of those do it for you?
 
I like to think I keep an open mind, so by all means show me the proof and ill believe it.

NB: proof cannot consist of Obama or Ukraine saying things without any evidence to back them up, or media articles that shown the rebels using equipment that can "only be obtained from Russia" (despite the fact it's lying all over Ukraine in bases and storage depots).

About the equipment, I'm assuming you mean tanks. The model in question is a T-72BM, which has NEVER been exported or otherwise ended up anywhere else other than in the hands of the Russian Army. Until now.

The Ukraine does have T-72's, but they're in storage, and lack the Kontakt 5 explosive reactive armour and upgraded armour plating on the turret that set the T-72BM apart from any other variant of the T-72, and make it rather distinctive.
 
I'd say in a certain sense Putin might have actually shot himself in the foot. One of the reason's he's thought to have done all this is is to seize territory to create a 'buffer zone' against NATO. However, I think one of the repercussions of all this will be an expansion of NATO, and a reversal in defence cuts across Europe. Previously neutral country's, like Sweden and Finland are now considering NATO membership, as they've just had it amply proven to them that being 'non-aligned' like Ukraine, isn't going to save you should Putin cast an avaricious eye over a strategic bit of your territory he likes.

I think you have mixed up cause and effect. NATO has been expanding and pushing further east and establishing missile batteries on those territories. Instead of disarmament what we see if one side continually pushing and naturally Russia now sees NATO on their boundaries. Mostly they have been ex-Warsaw pact countries but NATO trying to expand into Ukraine which is viewed by Russia as home turf. The only surprise is that is has taken Russia so long to react to American duplicity.
 
That to me sounds like a very closed mind.

Not really, I am open to believe it if anyone can come up with some hard proof, but thus far nobody has, if I just believed it regardless because it fitted with my opinions on Russia/Putin then that would make me closed minded.


None of those do it for you?

No because I require solid evidence to believe pretty much anything, sorry.


Captured Russian soldiers.

10 soldiers who were supposed to be patrolling the border were stopped by Ukrainian authorities after they strayed slightly into Ukraine on an unmarked section (that means its a field with an invisible wall and your supposed to guess) and offered no resistance.


Satellite images of Russian tanks and spgs in Ukraine.

What that actually means is "Satellite images of Soviet tanks and spgs in Ukraine, we can't tell if they are of Russian or Ukrainian origin, but Russia=USSR so we'll just report Russia". Russia/Ukraine were the two biggest states in the USSR, their pre '92 hardware is the same and most of their 90's and early 2000's stuff is just modified versions of that hardware.


Russian conscripts saying they've been told they're to be fighting in Ukraine.

Aside from the fact that conscripts are usually unhappy about being conscripts, and will generally say bad things about their outfit even without any promise of payment from journalists. Who the hell would send barely trained conscripts to fight in a secret war? Putin is ex KGB, he would never do something so stupid.


Mothers of Russian soldiers asking for their return from Ukraine.

So we are to believe that their children were sent to fight in a super secret war but remembered to tell their mummies where they were going?


Sorry but all you have provided so far is circumstantial evidence, hearsay, and some over zealous journalism.
 
I like to think I keep an open mind, so by all means show me the proof and ill believe it.

NB: proof cannot consist of Obama or Ukraine saying things without any evidence to back them up, or media articles that shown the rebels using equipment that can "only be obtained from Russia" (despite the fact it's lying all over Ukraine in bases and storage depots).

Seeing pictures of what are clearly Russian soldiers in Crimea with all insignia removed from their uniforms, then denying that they are Russian soldiers until it's confirmed by the Kremlin isn't what I'd call keeping an open mind.
 
Uber...you're the most closed minded person ever!

How can you say you have an open mind and then say you want concrete proof. From what you've said the only way you'd believe it is if you'd see it. In which case either go to Ukraine or stop talking gash.
 
About the equipment, I'm assuming you mean tanks. The model in question is a T-72BM, which has NEVER been exported or otherwise ended up anywhere else other than in the hands of the Russian Army. Until now.

The T-72BM wasn't a Russian tank it was a USSR tank, it may have NEVER been exported or otherwise ended up anywhere else other than in the USSR but Ukraine was part of the USSR hence why they had parts for them and whole tanks.


The Ukraine does have T-72's, but they're in storage, and lack the Kontakt 5 explosive reactive armour and upgraded armour plating on the turret that set the T-72BM apart from any other variant of the T-72, and make it rather distinctive.

The T-72BM (basically a T72-B with Kontakt-5) may have been set apart from it's predecessors and successors by the Kontakt-5, but it's not the only variant of the T-72 to have it, the others are the Ukrainian T-72AG, T-72AMG and Serbian M84 tanks (despite the M84 name they are clones of the T-72 with various upgrades depending on model).

Oh by the way those T-72AG and AMG tanks with the Kontakt-5 armour that look identical to T-72BM's, they can be found in depos dotted around Ukraine, like ones seized by the rebels.

Oh and I almost forgot, the Kontakt-5 armour is even easier to find as they still use it on their T-80 and T-84 tanks.

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All over the internet I see people bragging about how they can see through Putin's lies/etc and can see what's really going down in Ukraine. Has it occurred to anyone we may simply be falling for Kievs lies?

Look at it this way, they are pushing the rebels further and further back and as a result are starting to inflict bigger and bigger civilian casualties, what better way to stop Russia intervening as you approach their border shooting at Russian speaking civilians, than by shouting louder and louder as you go about how Russia is attacking you, bullying you, hurting you. That way Russia knows the is no way they can do anything without major repercussions as everyone already thinks their guilty, it's like beating a bully by using their reputation as a bully to get them into trouble so they can't do anything.

Just an idea, and to be honest I think it's more likely Putin is up to very dodgy stuff, but I'm not going to make the leap from thinking it to believing it without a shred of hard evidence.
 
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Seeing pictures of what are clearly Russian soldiers in Crimea with all insignia removed from their uniforms, then denying that they are Russian soldiers until it's confirmed by the Kremlin isn't what I'd call keeping an open mind.

The thing is nobody saw that though (unless they let their bias convince them), all we saw were soldiers wearing generic soviet gear, they could have been from anywhere as Ukraine use that gear too so it would have made sense that separatists would have sourced their gear locally.

Seeing that and denying it alone proved they were Russian soldiers is what most people would call keeping an open mind.


How can you say you have an open mind and then say you want concrete proof.

Because that's kind of the definition of keeping an open mind, being open to all possibilities until one is actually proven!
 
Seeing pictures of what are clearly Russian soldiers in Crimea with all insignia removed from their uniforms, then denying that they are Russian soldiers until it's confirmed by the Kremlin isn't what I'd call keeping an open mind.

One thing that made me laugh when I saw it on TV last week; the Russian minister was shown aerial photographs of Russian tanks and artillery being moved around between Russia/Ukraine, and he just said "These are from a computer game" and just shrugged off the whole thing,

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/uk...-images-russian-troops-computer-games-n191771

I thought if he's willing to just shrug off hard photographic evidence, what are they really planning to do?
 
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