Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Iraklis F.C. said:
F4-E's are still an awesome kit of fighter, Japan, Greece, Turkey S.Korea still use them.
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They're still nowhere near the league of Ukraine's upgraded MiG-29 and Su-27 though and would be a notable downgrade. Sending them inferior planes would probably be a bad idea as they can't afford to be wasting pilots.

The idea that it would be quicker to train up on an F-4 than an F-16 is also debatable as older planes can in many cases be more complicated/difficult to operate. I would wager that an accomplished fighter pilot would master the F-16 quicker than the F4.
 
ubersonic said:
The idea that it would be quicker to train up on an F-4 than an F-16 is also debatable as older planes can in many cases be more complicated/difficult to operate. I would wager that an accomplished fighter pilot would master the F-16 quicker than the F4.
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Yeah many of the early generation fighter jets have old quirks, etc. which can very quickly kill you, which the newer stuff tends to either be fixed in hardware/dynamics or electronics/computer systems.
 
ubersonic said:
They're still nowhere near the league of Ukraine's upgraded MiG-29 and Su-27 though and would be a notable downgrade. Sending them inferior planes would probably be a bad idea as they can't afford to be wasting pilots.

The idea that it would be quicker to train up on an F-4 than an F-16 is also debatable as older planes can in many cases be more complicated/difficult to operate. I would wager that an accomplished fighter pilot would master the F-16 quicker than the F4.
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the phantom II is nicknamed the worlds largest distributor of MIG's parts for a reason, a modern F4-E armed with AIM 120's will drop every soviet junk east of the Dnieper like there is no tomorrow, F16's would be nice but it could be an overkill. Russian airforce is a joke, have you seen them the last year anywhere? Just think of the embarassment a 50 year old plane bringing havoc on the battlefield. It is also a twin engine plane and build tough, appropriate for such a low tech battlefield.
 
Blueball said:
Modern? I know there have been avionic upgrades but the airframes are ancient! The last F4 ever built was from 1981!!!!
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And? this logic doesnt apply to aircraft, i will also leave this here for the lulz

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Iraklis F.C. said:
the phantom II is nicknamed the worlds largest distributor of MIG's parts for a reason, a modern F4-E armed with AIM 120's will drop every soviet junk east of the Dnieper like there is no tomorrow, F16's would be nice but it could be an overkill. Russian airforce is a joke, have you seen them the last year anywhere? Just think of the embarassment a 50 year old plane bringing havoc on the battlefield. It is also a twin engine plane and build tough, appropriate for such a low tech battlefield.
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Modern air combat pivots really on who has the best long range sensors [and data links], best stand-off range missiles modified by stealth. Against the mainstay Russian air fleet even very old jets could hold their own with the right electronic warfare/command and control support and the right missiles.
 
Blueball said:
Oh yes it does. I have nearly 1000 hrs on Buccaneers and once an airframe gets old you have to treat it gently, you get limited on how much G you can pull and maintenance becomes very time consuming!
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True - but modern air combat, at least until things get chaotic, is less about manoeuvrability and more about who can detect and stick a missile on the other first.
 
Blueball said:
Oh yes it does. I have nearly 1000 hrs on Buccaneers and once an airframe gets old you have to treat it gently, you get limited on how much G you can pull and maintenance becomes very time consuming!
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There wont be any dogfights when i can shoot you down with a missile over the horizon, them russkies dont have such capabilities and even if they advertise they do i highly doubt they are worth noting. Also think that if they manage to shoot down a modern fighter they will be picking up its every bit to study it, just like they put a price for a captured leopard tank if they deploy them in Ukraine. Think rationally, it isnt the best practice to send something advanced over there, an old but trusty platform with modern avionics and weaponry could do a lot of damage. If it was a question of sending the best then there wouldnt be a debate on what to give to ukranians, rafale's, EF2000's and Gripens would be already there but its not a sensible strategy, imho!
 
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Iraklis F.C. said:
There wont be any dogfights when i can shoot you down with a missile over the horizon, them russkies dont have such capabilities and even if they advertise they do i highly doubt they are worth noting. Also think that if they manage to shoot down a modern fighter they will be picking up its every bit to study it, just like they put a price for a captured leopard tank if they deploy them in Ukraine. Think rationally, it isnt the best practice to send something advanced over there, an old but trusty platform with modern avionics and weaponry could do a lot of damage. If it was a question of sending the best then there wouldnt be a debate on what to give to ukranians, rafale's, EF2000's and Gripens would be already there but its not a sensible strategy, imho!
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Absolutely bloody clueless. Added to my ignore list!
 
Rroff said:
Western doctrine these days is to defang air-defences before the fighters ever get any where near. Obviously in reality war is messy and when stuff hits the fan doctrine can go out the window.
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...and Ukraine doesn't have the ability to defang air defences. For the record, the last SAM you could out manoeuvre was the SAM2. If you saw it coming (lots of smoke on launch) you could move your aircraft to put the missile in either the 10 or 2 o'clock position then barrel roll round it; the missile couldn't manoeuvre quickly enough to engage.

Since then not much hope.
 
Blueball said:
...and Ukraine doesn't have the ability to defang air defences. For the record, the last SAM you could out manoeuvre was the SAM2. If you saw it coming (lots of smoke on launch) you could move your aircraft to put the missile in either the 10 or 2 o'clock position then barrel roll round it; the missile couldn't manoeuvre quickly enough to engage.

Since then not much hope.
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Though it is only scratching the surface they've been given some AGM-88s, was going to say with some modern anti-air systems good luck - even the likes of Starstreak if the operator has good line of sight no amount of stunts is going to save you.
 
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