Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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Harlequin said:
Ukraine since 1991 has had a lot of history ; its disengenuous to say NATO wasn`t involved until recently - they were accepted into the Partnership for Peace programme back in 1994.

2004 - the first direct Russia influenced election;Yushchenkois the candidate who wants closer EU ties, and Yanukovych is openly supported by Russia. During the campaign Yushchenkoi is poisoned with dioxines but survives and his supporters take to the streets dressed in orange. They force a revote and Yushchenkoi is the first president in a former USSR state who overturns the Russia supproted incumbant.

2006 - Russia turns off the gas (for the first time) , the EU are alarmed but as we know 14 years later, didnt have an actual plan.

2008, NATO actually talk to Putin about adding Croatia, Georgia and Ukraine to its membership action plan - Putin replies with 2 things. He says Ukraine isnt really a nation state anyway, and he invades Georgia. After which Ukraine open talks with the EU about closer intergration.

2010 election saw Yanukovych voted back in, on a platform of anti corruption ; UN and EU observers say the election was free and fair (this time). Aftyer 2 years of talks but opposition party leaders arrested, the EU talks break down, and Yanukovych moves closer to Russia which leads to....

2013 - Euromaiden.

which then goes to

2014 - Russia invade Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk and here we are.
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They only actively started pursuing closer NATO ties in response to the 2014 invasion though - before that they only supported cooperation not integration.
 
Malevolence said:
Park them in Poland. If it's OK for Russia to park and use weapons in/from Belarus to attack Ukraine, then I can't see Putin having an issue with Ukraine doing the same.
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I doubt Putin would see it that way and he would probably make Polish airports that's housing them legitimate targets, which may very well be the case if they do

Would this bring Poland into the war? It would so it will never happen, the Poles wont house the F16's as it escalates the war into NATO territory.

They will have a plan from where they take off but it will be in Ukraine, Its a big country so they will have a secret base or two to house them, covered with a good few air defense systems.
 
Harlequin said:
Ukraine since 1991 has had a lot of history ; its disengenuous to say NATO wasn`t involved until recently - they were accepted into the Partnership for Peace programme back in 1994.

2004 - the first direct Russia influenced election;Yushchenkois the candidate who wants closer EU ties, and Yanukovych is openly supported by Russia. During the campaign Yushchenkoi is poisoned with dioxines but survives and his supporters take to the streets dressed in orange. They force a revote and Yushchenkoi is the first president in a former USSR state who overturns the Russia supproted incumbant.

2006 - Russia turns off the gas (for the first time) , the EU are alarmed but as we know 14 years later, didnt have an actual plan.

2008, NATO actually talk to Putin about adding Croatia, Georgia and Ukraine to its membership action plan - Putin replies with 2 things. He says Ukraine isnt really a nation state anyway, and he invades Georgia. After which Ukraine open talks with the EU about closer intergration.

2010 election saw Yanukovych voted back in, on a platform of anti corruption ; UN and EU observers say the election was free and fair (this time). Aftyer 2 years of talks but opposition party leaders arrested, the EU talks break down, and Yanukovych moves closer to Russia which leads to....

2013 - Euromaiden.

which then goes to

2014 - Russia invade Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk and here we are.
Click to expand...
All true but it should be noted for most of it's independence Ukraine has been suspicious of NATO and never sought membership. It was only after the 2014 invasion things changed.

NATO has only become larger because of Russian aggression. If keeping NATO away from it's boarders was truly the goal of Putin then every decision he's made whilst he's been in power has led to the opposite result yet that hasn't deterred him from grabbing more territory.
 
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Malevolence said:
Park them in Poland. If it's OK for Russia to park and use weapons in/from Belarus to attack Ukraine, then I can't see Putin having an issue with Ukraine doing the same.
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Legally you can't fly a military jet loaded with weapons out of a neutral country. For that to work the planes would have to out of Poland with no payload other then fuel, land at a Ukrainian airbase and get it's payload fitted out, do the mission and either go back to a Polish base (assuming it's used all of it's ordinance) or land at a Ukrainian airbase, strip it down then fly back to Poland for maintenance.

That's too logistically challenging (not to mention it puts Poland's neutrality into question) and your thinking like a westerner. Russia has shown no ability or willingness so far in this war to bomb Ukrainian airfields to take out it's aircraft instead of civilians.
 
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bris said:
I doubt Putin would see it that way and he would probably make Polish airports that's housing them legitimate targets, which may very well be the case if they do

Would this bring Poland into the war? It would so it will never happen, the Poles wont house the F16's as it escalates the war into NATO territory.

They will have a plan from where they take off but it will be in Ukraine, Its a big country so they will have a secret base or two to house them, covered with a good few air defense systems.
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They will certainly have had a plan worked through by now. I suspect that all the usual runways are well known to the Russians and they will be keeping a very close watch on them for any out of the ordinary activity.
What the Russians will not be able to keep any sort of close watch on though is 100's of 1000's of miles of roads. A straight road is much the same as a runway and can be used to take off and land on. A complete support unit can be stationed on a road and also moved at very short notice to another road.
When the F16's are deployed, this is how i see them being used. During WW2 the RAF suffered huge losses of aircraft on the ground at airfields in the beginning. The solution was to split them up onto satellite airfields in smaller numbers.
You can't do that with modern jet fighters, but you can fly on and off of roads.
 
kitfit1 said:
They will certainly have had a plan worked through by now. I suspect that all the usual runways are well known to the Russians and they will be keeping a very close watch on them for any out of the ordinary activity.
What the Russians will not be able to keep any sort of close watch on though is 100's of 1000's of miles of roads. A straight road is much the same as a runway and can be used to take off and land on. A complete support unit can be stationed on a road and also moved at very short notice to another road.
When the F16's are deployed, this is how i see them being used. During WW2 the RAF suffered huge losses of aircraft on the ground at airfields in the beginning. The solution was to split them up onto satellite airfields in smaller numbers.
You can't do that with modern jet fighters, but you can fly on and off of roads.
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IIRC several countries (I think Sweden and Norway for example) built their motorway/A road network specifically with that in mind, with plenty of very straight well maintained and wide stretches.
 
Werewolf said:
IIRC several countries (I think Sweden and Norway for example) built their motorway/A road network specifically with that in mind, with plenty of very straight well maintained and wide stretches.
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The M62 near Burtonwood US airbase (Warrington / St Helens) was built straight and without overbridges for just such a reason. Cold war bombers could use it as a runway.
 
Jono8 said:
Which of course it isn't. Otherwise, like you say; every action he has carried out has inevitably had the opposite effect.
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He expected this to be over in 3 days, and to have been welcomed in Kyiv to cheers and Russian flags being waved.

He's spent a year and a half trying to dig himself out of a colossal mistake, and has no choice now but to continue.
 
Stumble Bum said:
42 F-16's from Netherlands
19 F-16's from Denmark
Gripen's from Sweden imminent

Any other planes to be expected? Hopefully they can start changing the tide.
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USA are replacing the B2 soon with the B21.
Maybe they can give that update a punt to make it faster and the spare B2s would be pretty useful in Ukraine.
I jest, I don't believe the US would let anyone have B2s, but the Ruskies thinking they had them would be a classic ;)
 
Malevolence said:
I want to know where this 42 F-16s from the RNAF is coming from. They only have 24, so has someone got their digits back to front?
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'The Netherlands has 42 F-16s available in all but has yet to decide whether all of them will be donated, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said earlier on Sunday, when Zelenskiy visited the country.'
 
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