Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

Status
Not open for further replies.
Grim5 said:
Looking for survivors




Yeah ai don't think you gonna find any


"At the time of the strike on the large landing ship "Novocherkassk" in Feodosia, there were 77 contract soldiers and an unknown number of conscripts on board the ship - the public page "VChK-OGPU" with reference to an unnamed sourcez. More than half of them, with a high degree of probability, died. According to internal records of the Ministry of Defense, 33 sailors and 4 conscripts are listed as missing. More than a day has passed since the attack and most likely none of them will be found alive,” the source told VChK- OGPU".
Click to expand...

A few are likely in orbit
 
Roar87 said:
No one serious about aviation thinks the Su-57 doesn't work lol. What you can say about it is a few things, they don't have very many of them and they can't manufacture the engines they would have liked to be in them. It's still an impressive stealth aircraft. Only the F-22 is really a match for it, which is an achievement.
Click to expand...
It depends on your definition of doesn't work, does it fly? yes. Is it as good as an Su-35? Probably. Is it worth the extra? No. Is it on par with a 5th gen US fighter designed when Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, DOS was the worlds most popular operating system, Nelson Mandela was in prison wondering if his country would ever be free and the Mir and ISS space stations were rolling down the assembly line? No.

-------------------------

Joking aside I thought I should take a second to write about the Su-57 because I know a lot of people who read this thread don't know an awful lot about military aircraft or their development/capabilities, and so will see things like "fifth generation" and "stealth fighter" and automatically assume that the Su-57 must be in the same league as the F-22, F-35, J-20, etc when in reality it is far from it.

The history, and how it got here:

Okay, to begin with we have to understand where the Su-57 came from, and the story begins in the 1980s. The USA decided it needed to produce a next generation fighter jet to achieve air dominance over the fourth gen MiG-29 and Su-27 jets of the USSR (and also the European Combat Fighter program the main nations of Europe were working on, which would result in both the Rafale and Typhoon because Europe can never get along). This resulted in the Advanced Tactical Fighter program and design submissions from Lockheed and Northrop for planes dubbed the YF-22 and YF-23 respectively. Both aircraft would be built and the two would face off in a competition to decide the best plane to be the USA's super awesome fighter to dominate the skies.

When word of the Advanced Tactical Fighter got back to Moscow it was decided that the USSR couldn't be allowed to fall behind and so they too would commission a fifth generation fighter jet to ensure Soviet dominance of the skies. This would result in design submissions from Sukhoi and MiG, and I'm sure we can all guess who won? That's right MiG who were commissioned to build their MiG 1.44 design. Obviously Sukhoi's fifth gen dreams did not end here and they would continue to develop their own design, which became the Su-47 prototype, itself resulting in design advancements that were backported to the Su-27 fourth gen fighter resulting in the Su-35 "four point five" gen fighter.

So what happened then? Well for a start the USSR collapsed bankrupting Russia and putting MiG 1.44 development on hold, in fact putting all military development on hold (aside from renaming a late 80s T-72 upgrade package to the T-90 to try and wow export customers with a "new" tank). Over in freedom land the Advanced Tactical Fighter program drew to a close with test pilots agreeing the Northrop YF-23 was the superior plane, better stealth than the YF-22, similar manoeuvrability, and overall the better plane, so obviously the USAF gave the contract to the Lockheed YF-22 which would enter production as the F-22. As the finished F-22 design was first taking to the sky a recovering Russia decided things needed to be done and so the MiG 1.44 was given a cash influx and it too took to the skies a few years later, after which it was decided that too much time had passed and so a new next gen plane must be commissioned instead.

Of course that sounds a little crazy as the F-22 was the same age and was still half a decade away from full mass production/introduction, but the reality was it was a complete lie, Moscow knew they could not afford to finish the MiG 1.44 program and the recovering Russian economy was still decades away from being in that position, and so a "cheaper than what the Americans are building but still better than what anyone has now" design was required. As before this drew submissions from from Sukhoi and MiG, the MiG idea was quite ingenious, they would take the lead on a revolutionary new design they had created but Sukhoi and Yakovlev would also have input and share workload, thus allowing Russia to draw from the expertise and manpower of all it's Soviet era aerial powerhouses for the most optimum result. Sukhoi on the other hand wanted to build a plane based on the concepts of the Su-35, make it kind of more like an Su-47, also kind of like an F-22, and boom plane. Moscow decided that Sukhoi's idea sounded the most achievable in the time frame desired and so awarded the contract.

And that was that, seven years after Sukhoi were awarded the contract the Su-57 would take to the sky and a decade later they would enter "mass" production and be introduced to the Russian air force. Russia finally had it's fifth gen fighter.

Why it sucks:

Sucks is probably a strong word, if you told me I was being sent to fight an F-22 and had my choice of any Russian jet I would definitely take the Su-57 (actually scratch that I would take the MiG-31 and run for my life :P) but anyway history lesson over lets get to the performance data. The Su-57 is allegedly a fifth generation fighter, and I say allegedly because it's closer to F-15/Typhoon performance than it is to F-22/35 performance. But that's to be expected as it was never really designed to beat the F-22/35 just the top western fourth gen fighters in order to secure a solid second place.

The main problem is that the biggest most important part of the fifth generation philosophy is the stealth, it's basically what sets a modernised/upgraded 1980s fourth gen fighter apart from a true fifth generation fighter. Now I know many may be thinking "but what about 2D/3D thrust vectoring and supermanoeuvrability? Wasn't that touted as a big fifth gen thing back in the 90s?" and the answer is yes, but it turned out to be worthless which is why the F-35 doesn't have it. The truth is you can stick thrust vectoring on an F-16, MiG-29 and Su-27 and it will look great at air shows, but in real combat it isn't going to help you avoid that incoming missile that was fired from beyond visual range because missile tech has evolved at a better rate, and the only way you're getting into a dogfight with somebody in this day and age is if you one of you has a seriously better plane and feels like having some fun with your food.

To put it in perspective with figures, an S-400 system can detect an approaching F/A-18 Super Hornet from 275km away, but can only detect an approaching Su-57 from 155km away, which sounds great, until you realise it can only detect an approaching F-35 from 27km away. In addition, the Su-57 has the same radar signature as a fourth generation Saab Gripen carrying no missiles/bombs (obviously not something you would encounter in combat but mentioning it to put the lack of stealth in perspective).

There are numerous reasons for this, the lack of proper fifth gen ducting on the air intakes for the engine, the targeting droid on the front of the plane (a holdover from the Su-35) having the radar signature of a small moon, the lack of proper radar reflective coating (they use a cheaper less effective but easier to maintain substitute), the exposed rivets/screws, etc.

And their in lies the issue. Due to it's many flaws the Su-57 is not remotely competitive against an F-22. The Su-57 is not remotely competitive against an F-35. The Su-57 is not remotely competitive against a J-20. The Su-57 is not remotely competitive against a YF-23 prototype from 1989. The Su-57 is not even remotely competitive against a MiG 1.44 prototype (which is why they stopped having the 1.44 prototype appear at MAKS as even a child could tell by looking at it that it was a far superior stealth fighter and as a result it was embarrassing the Su-57 by proximity). In fact the only reason that an Su-57 would be about to defeat an F-117 nighthawk in a 1v1 engagement is because the F-117s superior stealth would be negated by how close it would need to be to drop JDAMs on the Su-57, which is funny until you realise that if they could jerry rig AMRAAMS onto the 40 year old F-117 it too could kill the Su-57.

And then finally there's the Su-57's party piece. Not only are it's stealth properties objectively bad, but it only has frontal stealth. From the sides/rear it's just as easy to see on radar as an Su-34. They didn't think this was an issue during design as they would always be advancing and have air superiority.

Conclusion:

I've been very hard on the Su-57 as you can see so it may confuse anyone still awake to find out I actually really really like this plane, it's one of my favourites. Why you might ask? Because if you ignore all of Russia's propaganda, false claims of how great it is, and just look at the plane for what it actually is, the absolute pinnacle of 4.5++ generation fighter jets then it becomes a lot easier to like. While it falls well short when compared to any true fifth generation fighters, if you're comparing it against an F-15 or Typhoon it becomes way cooler.

In conclusion then, the Su-57 is a terrible fifth gen fighter, but still extremely capable against anything not a fifth gen fighter, which unfortunately for Ukraine encompasses every plane they own or are likely to own in the next decade. And while current production numbers are dire, the more of them Russia produces the more of a problem they will become for those not flying F-35s or the like.
 
Grim5 said:
Which Russian carriers support the su-57?
Click to expand...
I don't believe there's any plans to build a naval variant of the Su-57, presumably for a number of factors.

Those factors of course being that Russia only have one Soviet aircraft carrier left and it's questionable if it will ever sail again. India and China who are their main carrier jet customers don't want them (India having originally been part of the Su-57 program until they dropped out after being unimpressed with prototypes and China building their own future carrier jets). And finally it's unlikely Russia could afford to build a carrier variant anyway, the only reason they were able to finish the MiG-29K that the USSR designed for the Kuznetsov/Ulyanovsk class carriers is because India bankrolled it as they wanted them for their new carriers (which explains why thy are actually a good plane with modern avionics/etc even by western standards).

*EDIT*

In addition a navalised Su-57 would be significantly larger than a MiG-29K which would reduce the amount that could be carried.
 
Last edited:
ubersonic said:
I don't believe there's any plans to build a naval variant of the Su-57, presumably for a number of factors.

Those factors of course being that Russia only have one Soviet aircraft carrier left and it's questionable if it will ever sail again. India and China who are their main carrier jet customers don't want them (India having originally been part of the Su-57 program until they dropped out after being unimpressed with prototypes and China building their own future carrier jets). And finally it's unlikely Russia could afford to build a carrier variant anyway, the only reason they were able to finish the MiG-29K that the USSR designed for the Kuznetsov/Ulyanovsk class carriers is because India bankrolled it as they wanted them for their new carriers.
Click to expand...


Since the answer is zero, there isn't much opportunity in future for Russia to use the SU-57 against supposedly weaker 4th Gen planes given almost all its enemies within range of its planes are rapidly switching to the F-35 or J-20


On a similar note, at a recent event a Russian official was courting interest for the "6th generation" SU-75 and claims that UAE showed some interest. He also claimed the SU-75 will go into full production in 2026.


But when we start to look at the design and specs of the SU-75 we notice that it's just fitted with the same components as the SU-57 and use the same engine, main difference being one engine instead two, no thrust vectoring, different air intake and internal missile bay and apparently no radar absorbing paint and an estimated flight ceiling of between 40 and 50 thousand feet. So in summary the SU-75 is more like a modified SU-57, and even then the SU-75 appears like it will be inferior to the F-35. Russia just wants to call it 6th Gen so they can claim they have the worlds first 6th gen
 
Last edited:
Hyundai sold the plant in St. Pidersburg for $110. It was launched in 2010 costing $219mil. They sold only 5 cars last August.
There is a phrase in rashan "rashan bizniz" where you make negative profit.
www.google.com

Hyundai Sells St. Petersburg Auto Plant - The Moscow Times

South Korean automaker Hyundai announced Tuesday it will sell its St.
www.google.com www.google.com
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom