Ukraine Invasion - Please do not post videos showing attacks/similar

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NATO intervention was sanctioned by resolution 1973 but it had very specific objectives and boundaries which it is argued NATO crossed. Russia was very vocal about that during the campaign as the resolution did not sanction regime change.

I agree with you r.e. Russia and Syrian intervention however the mission creep from the Libya campaign meant even resolutions Russia may have agreed on were impossible to sanction because Russia believed (rightly so) that they would have been used to install a more pro west government. Again, much like the Ukraine, Syria had little to do with the population, more to do with influence. Either way if we had entered a Syrian campaign we would probably still be there now trying to stop the jihadists installing an Islamic government there...

It's quite telling that in the last 20 years we very rarely go in to proper peace keeping/government backup missions such as Sierra Leone and Kosovo. There are many nations around the world where British and western help would really make a difference to people's lives by backing democratically elected governments against rebel factions. It's not in our interest so we don't do if...

With regards to the question about minorities and regions of the Crimea not wanting independence from Ukraine, there is the same problem in Scotland where answers will never be satisfactorily answered for many people. Many parts of Scotland are more pro independence while several parts of Scotland are heavily against the idea of an independent Scotland (such as the islands and north east). If Scotland gets independence those people's wishes are unlikely to be factored in, with parts of Scotland remaining with the UK.

While I understand the constitutional arrangement is different, with Westminster allowing the Scottish government to have a referendum on the matter, the idea that a constitution is legally unchallengeable and always correct is shown to be false even in the Ukraine where parts have been changed multiple times, most recently with the ammendments in the last couple of weeks.
 
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Reading this post is most enlightening as to why war happens.

It started as a good informative open discussion and very rapidly degenerated into personal insults with people not actually reading the evidence put before them or taking the time to hear the both sides of the story.

Those with good information and posts in this thread = Politicians - Both sides
Those throwing insults = Protestors too lazy to engage brians and resort to throwing rocks - Both sides
The rest of GD - The inocent victims who suffer through all the FUD

If this thread was Ukraine, it would be sitting under a mushroom cloud right now.

I can only hope that they all sort it out before it gets out of hand and turns into another Yugoslavia with Ukraine split east and west and massive amounts of bloodshed.
 
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Can we realy blame russia? ukraine was about to join the eu and then russia economic interests within that region which are substantial would be negatively affected by the EU. Already the EU is freezing assets in western ukraine, so it just shows that from russia perspective, ukraine joining the eu would have put them at a big disadvantage.

Considering the eastern ukraine was already russian speaking and economically already very russian. It was not so much an invasion as russians already had bases there and a presence.

Who can blame russia for not wanting to deal with the EU?

Gazprom and other industries that trade through that region who are already well connected within the ukraine and russian governments and use this relationship to their economic advantage, would be back at square one with trying to negotiate economic issues with the eu. Now we know how the eu would have negotiated they would have locked the russian interests out of that region. In that sense the russians actions are quite reasonable as the real threat was the European communist union.

AS for the ukraine people they are just fed up with corrupt state and russia who control their territory. Which is very understandable, the russian backed government who imprisoned the female prime minster and replaced with their russian backed pm who also (apparently) has support of Ukraine population, especially in the east are caught in the middle and played against each other.
 
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Ron Paul: Crimea Has Right to Join Russia, Obama's Sanctions 'Criminal'
Former congressman says the U.S. should embrace self-determination.

Bet Putin wishes the yanks had elected him, lol.

To be fair I think instead of whining the west should get on board and send observers to ensure the referendum is done fairly/legally. That way nobody can cast dispersions on the result.
 
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Bet Putin wishes the yanks had elected him, lol.

To be fair I think instead of whining the west should get on board and send observers to ensure the referendum is done fairly/legally. That way nobody can cast dispersions on the result.

West. Fair. Do you really think they'd allow that?

i am not aiming this at you as you seem to:

  1. Realise that Rambo is not real
  2. Understand that neither Russia nor The West are in it for alturistic reasons
  3. That Ukraine may not have experienced a 'spontaneous' uprising
  4. That good guys/bad guys is a gross oversimplification
 
Reading this post is most enlightening as to why war happens.

It started as a good informative open discussion and very rapidly degenerated into personal insults with people not actually reading the evidence put before them or taking the time to hear the both sides of the story.

Those with good information and posts in this thread = Politicians - Both sides
Those throwing insults = Protestors too lazy to engage brians and resort to throwing rocks - Both sides
The rest of GD - The inocent victims who suffer through all the FUD

If this thread was Ukraine, it would be sitting under a mushroom cloud right now.

I can only hope that they all sort it out before it gets out of hand and turns into another Yugoslavia with Ukraine split east and west and massive amounts of bloodshed.

What? No, wars start because some people want what other people have, often with the conviction that it belonged to them in the first place. The only wars that start after heated debates are fictional, IE. Gulliver's Travels.

The last time countries started taking foreign territory in Europe, the situation degraded into WW2 so it doesn't suprise me the West is reacting in this manner. They let it go when it happened in Georgia but I doubt they will let it go when it's happening right on our doorstep, especially as this is turning into a habbit for Mother Russia.
 
well this is going to end well.

Alim Aliyev, the Crimean Tatars' representative in Lviv, said he was optimistic about the region's future. Tatar men were sending their families away so they could dutifully defend their land, he said.

"As long as Tatars are in Crimea, Crimea will remain part of Ukraine," he said.

Tatars will launch a guerrilla war against the Russian forces if they do not pack up and leave the region, Aliyev warned.

"We will dance the haytarma and the hopak (traditional Tatar and Ukrainian folk dances) on the ruins of Putin's post-imperialist ambitions," he said.
 
That's scary Dev but I am a tad more worried about this:

Over 65000 attend pro-Crimea rally outside Kremlin
Yahoo News

Putin is now in the corner and the paint is wet, with the Russia voters behind what's going on in Crimea he can't turn back now even if he wanted or planned to.
 
Multiculturalism resetting to the default yet again. Watching that video of ethnic Russians beating ethnic Ukrainians in the street, I can see this looking like a junior Yugoslavia soon.

Russia should use the money it was going to give to Ukraine and just pay all the ethnic Ukrainians $100k each to leave to the disputed part.
 
I wonder if they allow the OSCE observers in Crimea. If they do it and the elections aren't rigged, it's difficult to guess the referendum results.

Afterall, Russians barely account for 50% of the population and many of them are related to Ukrainians, I doubt they will all vote for joining Russia.
 
That's scary Dev but I am a tad more worried about this:



Putin is now in the corner and the paint is wet, with the Russia voters behind what's going on in Crimea he can't turn back now even if he wanted or planned to.

Yeah colour me surprised that 65,000 Russian just spontaneously decided to protest in favour of their government at this time. I've always found it slightly odd that it's only countries with hardline, authoritarian governments that ever get large scale pro-government mass protests?
 
I wonder if they allow the OSCE observers in Crimea. If they do it and the elections aren't rigged, it's difficult to guess the referendum results.

Afterall, Russians barely account for 50% of the population and many of them are related to Ukrainians, I doubt they will all vote for joining Russia.

The populations is ~60% ethnic Russian, ~25% ethnic Ukrainian, ~12.5% ethnic Tatar, and I have no idea about the other ~2.5% /shrug

But I agree it will be hard to call, a vote for independence is a given but whether they also tick the box to join Russia is very hard to say.
 
To be fair I think instead of whining the west should get on board and send observers to ensure the referendum is done fairly/legally. That way nobody can cast dispersions on the result.

that's exactly what is happening

bbc are reporting right now that on 2nd attempt for monitors to enter Crimera Russian troops turned them away

Ukraine defence minister on radio 4 this morning saying how they are not rejecting the idea of referendums / votes - just that how can it be fair / trusted vote when Russian troops are on the streets, and Russias even shut off Ukraine tv channels and replaced them with Russia state controlled media
 
that's exactly what is happening

bbc are reporting right now that on 2nd attempt for monitors to enter Crimera Russian troops turned them away

Different type of observer, the OSCE ones are seen as enemies by Crimeans sort of like a school inspector by staff (only analogy I could think of on the spot lol).


Ukraine defence minister on radio 4 this morning saying how they are not rejecting the idea of referendums / votes

He should mention that to their president as he has been saying that the Crimean government are terrorists/separatists, Crimea will always belong to Ukraine, any attempt to hold a referendum would be illegal and they would not acknowledge it.
 
He should mention that to their president as he has been saying that the Crimean government are terrorists/separatists, Crimea will always belong to Ukraine, any attempt to hold a referendum would be illegal and they would not acknowledge it.

id imagine that "any attempt to hold a referendum would be illegal and they would not acknowledge it" is because you cant be sure it would be fair while Russia is occupying the place and potentially fixing the result against you

the answer as I see it is for Russia to back off (even just back into their Crimean Bases) on the agreement that a fair open vote is held about the Crimea - no one can cry foul then
 
I see where there coming from. It seems our politicians only look up a couple of weeks of history.

Just look at a map to see Ukraine is right in the middle of EU and Russia. EU provoked Russia; they will not tolerate a potential NATO country on its doorstep.

I think we established about 10 pages ago that any country who incurs military action from Russia has "brought it on themselves".
 
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