United 93: How quickly we forget 9/11

nero120 said:
Why would me being in that position have any bearing on my opinion of society?? Its not like you to use emotional arguments.
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My point was that given that neither of us have been in such a situation it is hard to predict how our general psychology changes - 'hero' situations are the type of situations whereby people find themselves doing things that they wouldn't expect themselves to do (either heroism or cowardice)...

I would agree in theory, but the reality is most people are not prepared for the emotional and psychological trauma they would undergo in such a stressful situation (as they are used to comfortable living and very rarely are faced with such situations). Only the most hardy people would be able to control themselves in that situation and take action, the rest im sure would not be able to act through fear, even though they probably knew they would die anyway.
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Its not always about control, I'd agree that only the most hardy or military types could respond individually...

As an example, why is it that women allow themselves to be raped? Even if the guy has a knife, the reality is that they would probably kill them after the raping so why not go for broke and go for his eyes? Why? Because fear paralyses those that are not accustomed to it, and I cannot agree with you that the majority of those that flight would be any more capable of dealing with it.
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Yes, but that is also down the individual - and often 'group' behaviour results in very different behaviour than any of the people would do alone... but then again there are all sorts of mechanisms that either promote or inhibit behaviour in such situations... generally I'd say that people are bolder in numbers - which is why I wouldn't dismiss a United 93 situation...
 
cleanbluesky said:
Yes, but that is also down the individual - and often 'group' behaviour results in very different behaviour than any of the people would do alone... but then again there are all sorts of mechanisms that either promote or inhibit behaviour in such situations... generally I'd say that people are bolder in numbers - which is why I wouldn't dismiss a United 93 situation...
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I agree with that. But Im sure many didnt help in the revolt. Does the film describe how the hijackers gained entrance to the flight cabin?
 
nero120 said:
I agree with that. But Im sure many didnt help in the revolt. Does the film describe how the hijackers gained entrance to the flight cabin?
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Yes, but that might be considered a spoiler and whether there was evidence they used that method (not particularly innovantive but it worked)...
 
Saw this last night - gotta say it was really moving. It was wierd - it didn't really feel like a movie...

The ordinariness of the passengers, the traffic controllers etc. created this strong sense of reality. I was thinking to myself a lot how creepy it was that it felt similar to being on a plane in America - so I felt really anxious knowing that something awful was going to happen. Indeed it felt pretty disheartening when all the terrorist attacks were happening and the communication amongst all the air traffic control towers and (I think) NORAD was chaotic. The whole situation seemed to be hopeless.

It was very sad in the end - but when some of the passengers rose to the occasion, with such powerful resolve, it felt inspiring
 
I don't think I could detach myself from the events enough in order to watch the movie, it still seems too sone.

Perhaps in a few more years, but then perhaps it won't be so powerful.
 
We should never give terrorist the chace to do anything like that ever again. Although I'm deeply appauled at the tragic events I'm speculating on what really happened. There is a good documentry on it called Spare Change I think its on google video.
 
I'm not sure I like the bit with the German fella getting in the way, which isn't based on any part of fact...
 
I just watched it today, it did seem quite realistic, but it got tedious around the mid section, but as said - the last 3 minutes or so was very moving.
 
Keep seeing the trailers on TV and it looks like a really powerful film. Might go and see this with a few mates or something.
 
dirtydog said:
In fact haven't you said that you think it was shot down?
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(only just seen this)
I said that the only conspiracy theory I was willing to take on board was that I might accept that Flight 93 could have been shot down because of where it was heading.
After seeing the film and realising that all the families gave their sworn testimonies now makes me believe it happened as I originally thought it did.
 
dmpoole said:
(only just seen this)
I said that the only conspiracy theory I was willing to take on board was that I might accept that Flight 93 could have been shot down because of where it was heading.
After seeing the film and realising that all the families gave their sworn testimonies now makes me believe it happened as I originally thought it did.
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But the film is a work of fiction, so you should not use it to base your opinions on. I agree that it is plausible the flight could have been shot down, considering its destination, the time difference between the twin tower hits and the flight time of this flight and the fact that eye witnesses report seeing fighters in the vicinity of the crash. However, the black box recorder would tell us otherwise. I doubt it was shot down, but that is the most believable of all the 9/11 conspiracy theories out there.
 
nero120 said:
But the film is a work of fiction, so you should not use it to base your opinions on.
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Don't talk absolute garbage.
The families of the passengers had phone calls with them and they gave sworn testimonies to what was said between them.
It was the families who told them it was a suicide mission and they had to take the plane back.
Do you really think that the US Govt could make all those families up, give them all stories to tell, hide all the supposed victims of the flight on an island with Elvis and Bruce Lee.

That is one of the most pathetic posts ever.
 
dmpoole said:
Don't talk absolute garbage.
The families of the passengers had phone calls with them and they gave sworn testimonies to what was said between them.
It was the families who told them it was a suicide mission and they had to take the plane back.
Do you really think that the US Govt could make all those families up, give them all stories to tell, hide all the supposed victims of the flight on an island with Elvis and Bruce Lee.

That is one of the most pathetic posts ever.
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Er... riiiiigggggghhhhhhhht.

What I was saying (obviously) was that NO ONE alive knows what exactly happened on that plane, certainly not the families (regardless of what phone calls occured), or the film makers and certainly not you. The film is a work of fiction based upon limited knowledge which consists of biased opinion from the families of those on the plane that called them, the black box recorder info and the air traffic transcript. That is certainly not enough to know exactly what went on on board, whether it was all the passengers who revolved or one or two of them. The families are hardly gonna say, "yeah, my dead husband was crapping his pants like a coward and talking gibberish he was so afraid to die" are they? They are much more likely to say "he died like a hero" and put their middle finger up to "sworn testimonies".

Where you got all that crap about an island with elvis and bruce lee god only knows, maybe its time to lay off the wacky-backy?
 
nero120 said:
The film is a work of fiction based upon limited knowledge which consists of biased opinion from the families of those on the plane that called them, the black box recorder info and the air traffic transcript.
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And you say I'm on the wacky backy.
It is not a work of fiction.
It is not biased opinion - it is fact and sworn testimony.

The fiction part is how did the terrorists get into the cockpit - were they forced or did they just walk in? We'll never know but we can have a good guess.
We can only guess how many passengers were involved - was it 2 or 22?
How exactly did they get into the cockpit? - again its a guess that they used a trolley to batter it down.

It is a factual drama with a couple of embelishments to make a 10 minute story into 90 minutes.
 
The film focussed on everything that was known, air traffic control recordings and testimony, FAA, military reports and recordings and the black box recordings and phone calls made by passengers to their loved ones...

The embellishments, I would say...

The exact nature of the bomb, and the knives. The manner in which the attack was organised, and just how far it got... how access was gained to the cockpit. Some of the dialogue between the passengers, much of which was not vital given the attack against the terrorists was portrayed as a kind of disorganised mob action...
 
dmpoole said:
It is a factual drama with a couple of embelishments to make a 10 minute story into 90 minutes.
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No one can prove the events that took place on board because the ACTUAL facts (i.e the black box data and the air traffic transcripts) are too limited in information to precisely recount the events. The film is simply a dramatisation based upon what little information (read: not necesarily fact) we have on what occured on that flight.

You make me laugh with your "sworn testimony" rubbish! Didnt a certain president give a "sworn testimony" that he did not have sexual relations with a certian intern? What the hell makes you think that a family wouldnt lie to save their dead relative total shame? And even if that is not the case, what makes you think they would not embelish what actually was said to make their dead relative look more heroic? Their testimony is not FACT, it is opinion, unless the conversations were recorded and can be played for all of us to hear.
 
cleanbluesky said:
The film focussed on everything that was known, air traffic control recordings and testimony, FAA, military reports and recordings and the black box recordings and phone calls made by passengers to their loved ones...

The embellishments, I would say...

The exact nature of the bomb, and the knives. The manner in which the attack was organised, and just how far it got... how access was gained to the cockpit. Some of the dialogue between the passengers, much of which was not vital given the attack against the terrorists was portrayed as a kind of disorganised mob action...
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You also fail to mention the trivial fact of how many passengers were involved in the uprising? Was it one, two, three or more? Unfortunately the black box didnt get that bit of info, but im sure some helpful family member gave them an exact count right? Did the passengers kill a terrorist before the others locked themselves in the cabin? How did they manage to ram the cabin door with a snack trolley when the plane was descending at a steep angle? I wonder if the family testomonials contradicted each other at all, since they were originating from different people who were under intense emotional trauma, it seems reasonable that all their testimonials wouldnt totally add up, or were they all conveniently adding up?
 
nero120

You really are a fool.
Show some bloody respect to the families and dead.
I can't believe you are calling the relatives liars.
This debate ends now before I get suspended.
 
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