Universal basic income

4K8KW10 said:
That book is complete rubbish. Looks more like a propaganda by the western special agencies..... and not holding much connection with the reality :rolleyes:

Could you state the source for this "source"?
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

There you go.

If you prefer, there are plenty of other sources for deaths by communism, all quote numbers in the 10s of millions.

But it doesn't matter, they were only people who fought against the system...
 
Wait are we assuming that if someone doesn't die during some defined time frame, that they magically become immortal?

Right now at least 8 billion people are guaranteed to die. Back on 28th January 1892 that number was just over a Billion. So isn't the absolutely massive increase in human death toll entirely capitalism's fault? Why are we choosing to focus on a few million deaths instead of looking at the bigger picture here?
 
arknor said:
hes on the planet where the poor keep the world turning.

eradicate all poor people from the world ie anyone on minimum wage or close to it.
and see how the rich manage by themselves.

now do it the other way around and eradicate anyone earning more than say 25k a year or even 50k a year
which world would be more productive do you think?
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I see where you are coming from but really?

Think the world would be a better place if you eradicate everyone earning over £25k and that it will keep turning?

Think as a species we would be better with the people earning more than £25k...
 
4K8KW10 said:
Actually, no one is as happy right now.
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I'm pretty happy. Me and my partner earn a decent wage. Yes we have to work but enjoy our work. We go on a few holidays a year, own a house. Eat well. Socialise with friends when we want. Don't worry about finances.

Life is pretty great actually.

And no. We aren't millionaires.
 
The poor fund the rich, what planet are you on?

The richest 10% pay something like 50% of all income tax.

The poorest get far more back from the state than they pay in taxes
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balky12 said:
I see where you are coming from but really?

Think the world would be a better place if you eradicate everyone earning over £25k and that it will keep turning?

Think as a species we would be better with the people earning more than £25k...
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was alt tabing and busy when i posted.
not sure how that came out, had to check I even posted it or a mod ninja edit me :S

Okay lets start this a new.

our world is dying
There are 2 alternate worlds everything is the same as our earth currently is right now.
on one world everyone earning under 40k a year has vanished within the previous 24hours. (all the poorer members of society have gone)
on the other world everyone earning over 80k a year has vanished within 24hours. (all the wealthy members of society have gone)

where would you choose to go?
pretty sure the poor people contribute more to society than the rich.

the poor could carry on as normal without the rich people, the other way around, I don't think would work so well
 
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arknor said:
was alt tabing and busy when i posted.
not sure how that came out, had to check I even posted it or a mod ninja edit me :S

Okay lets start this a new.

our world is dying
There are 2 alternate worlds everything is the same as our earth currently is right now.
on one world everyone earning under 40k a year has vanished within the previous 24hours. (all the poorer members of society have gone)
on the other world everyone earning over 80k a year has vanished within 24hours. (all the wealthy members of society have gone)

where would you choose to go?
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The first one, always need a decent doctor or surgeon to fix you up.

What a ridiculous question.
 
4K8KW10 said:
People NEVER get rich when they work for someone else.
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well that isn't true... look at the disproportional increases in CEO and other senior manager's pay vs typical workers

look at the 3000 employees in the City of London who earn over 1 million Euros/800k a year in salary/bonus

4K8KW10 said:
It killed people because its execution was poor. Not that the ideology itself is wrong.
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4K8KW10 said:
The only people who had problems were those who fought in some way against the system. Everyone else were much happier. Actually, no one is as happy right now.
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this is just laughable, the only people killed by communism fought against the system in some way :confused: - that's total bull**** people were killed simply because of who they were, academics, peasant farmers who had a little bit more than some other peasant farmers, people who wore glasses etc.. is wearing glasses fighting against the system?
 
4K8KW10 said:
No, I have already said that the execution was poor.
People can suffer because of several factors. Like being tired, or wanting higher remunerations. Some people suffered because they were greedy to become the future capitalists.

Which is a better motivation for the people - to work for the country with a true purpose and great idea, or to be just the next individual who works for a greedy oligarch capitalist?
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This is the problem - the average human doesn't think like that - even those born into such a system and know nothing else. There are some cultures that seem slightly better aligned towards it for some reason (which tends to stray into a bit of a controversial subject).

In some countries with access to high levels of income and relatively low population it can kind of work but even then you often have issues reconciling between the value two any individual places on their own work and that of others.

The only way really for there ever to be progress is when there is a global shift in human nature towards percieving what Carl Sagan was talking about when he mentioned an organism at war with itself and those core values don't need an inflexible system enforcing them to happen.
 
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arknor said:
Snip
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Would that mean those unemployed would still be around if only those earning over £40k vanished?

Now you have to support all the unemployed in less tax? Along with all the public services with less tax...

And I guess all the criminals in prison would stil be around? :O

Think I'd prefer to live with the people earning over £40k a year please. Bin men and tube drivers will still exist so I'm sorted :D
 
SlyReaper said:
You don't like that book? There are other ways to total up the death toll. Wikipedia for one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide

Pick the historical atrocity, there's probably a wikipedia page for it that states the death toll, with a citation. No matter how you tally it up, the number is at least in the tens of millions.
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Dolph said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

There you go.

If you prefer, there are plenty of other sources for deaths by communism, all quote numbers in the 10s of millions.

But it doesn't matter, they were only people who fought against the system...
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The book isn't 100% objective with its analysis on the reasons for the mass starvations.

Let's look at the figures:
China - economic crisis;
USSR - combined death toll with the consequencies of 2 global wars;
Ethiopia - economic crisis plus severe climate pressure;
Vietnam - war and tough climate there too;

Eastern bloc - 1 million is an impossible number. In my country, as far as I can recall, there were, maybe, maximum several thousands of people who died in prisons or because the People's court judges decided that they should be executed.
 
4K8KW10 said:
Because you didn't understand that I can't speak about the USSR. I am not familiar with their history and the reasons for the mass starvation.

I repeated several times what the situation had been in.... MY COUNTRY!
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Advocates for communism - not familiar with the history of the USSR... Seems about right.

Here is a very quick recap of just some of the effects of communism

USSR - The Gulag archipelago, the holodomor, millions dead, widescale human rights abuses
Maoist china - Millions dead, widescale human rights abuses, massive erasure of history and culture
Cambodia - 30% of the population dead
North Korea - Millions dead and enslaved, entire country forced into a cult of personality
East Germany - 1/4 of the population acting as spies against their friends and family. Loads of deaths
 
I'm pretty sure if you took everyones wealth put it into a pot and then dished it out the resulting average wealth would be fairly rubbish. So do you want to live in that world where everything is more fair but everyone is skint with no hope of changing that or do you want to live somewhere where you can work yourself out of that through a bit of hard work (and luck sometimes). I so somethimes think maybe I shouldn't bother and see where that gets me.
 
Judgeneo said:
Advocates for communism - not familiar with the history of the USSR... Seems about right.

Here is a very quick recap of just some of the effects of communism

USSR - The Gulag archipelago, the holodomor, millions dead, widescale human rights abuses
Maoist china - Millions dead, widescale human rights abuses, massive erasure of history and culture
Cambodia - 30% of the population dead
North Korea - Millions dead and enslaved, entire country forced into a cult of personality
East Germany - 1/4 of the population acting as spies against their friends and family. Loads of deaths
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Well, China is a Communist country right now and shows the highest economic growth worldwide. It is the number 1 economy globally, the factory of the globe :D
 
4K8KW10 said:
The problem in some countries is that people work extremely hard, and they are still poor and can't afford basic and simple services, like good healthcare or education.
The rich in those countries, meanwhile, enjoy extremely high and unnaturally high profits.

People NEVER get rich when they work for someone else.
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My previous employer paid his employee's generously.. A very competitive bonus scheme in an employment that required no education or prior skills..

One of my managers saved like crazy with the money he was earning and went on to buy 5-6 houses.. He is now extremely comfortable thanks to working for someone else, so i wouldn't say that is completely true.
 
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