UNPOPULAR OPINION: German Marques are no longer prestige..

[blun]

I can understand that. I have always wanted a Lexus estate but nothing ever materialised. Their GS 450H always seemed like a good sweet spot in terms of power and fuel economy.

JLR are a broke company though. Surely Toyota have the financial clout to take on the German 3. They have managed it in the States and China.

Toyota and Lexus have missed the boat on EVs and will go out of business if they don’t take some extreme action very quickly.

Their activities actively campaigning and lobbying against emissions reduction are unforgivable and they deserve to die away.

 

[adam cool dude]

Toyota and Lexus have missed the boat on EVs and will go out of business if they don’t take some extreme action very quickly.

Their activities actively campaigning and lobbying against emissions reduction are unforgivable and they deserve to die away.

What has that got to do with anything in this thread?

 

[blun]

What has that got to do with anything in this thread?

Suggesting that Toyota / Lexus have the clout to take on the German 3, when in reality they will be lucky to still be here in 10 years due to their short sightedness and horrendous business practices. They are so in debt and so behind, they don't stand a chance. At least the German 3 are taking the ICE to EV transition seriously rather than lobbying against it (even if they were caught out and are now having to do it sooner than originally planned).

 

[sx_turbo]

Toyota and Lexus have missed the boat on EVs and will go out of business if they don’t take some extreme action very quickly.

Their activities actively campaigning and lobbying against emissions reduction are unforgivable and they deserve to die away.

Tbh I think Toyota are the only realists.

They were the first with hybrid introduction, they want to reduce carbon emissions, they just see a different route to do that.

Going ev isn't the answer, what's it gives it takes with another.

Battery electric cannot be a sustainable future, it is too resource intensive, it's a short term quick fix to a problem, Hydrogen is the most likely option for the future if they can get the production costs down, maybe bio fuels in the shirt to medium term.

At the moment I think we are another 30 years away to get close to zero carbon in motor vehicles.

But anyway, this is going well off topic.

To get it back in...

I'll take my Audi on a 3 year lease plan at £450 per month with zero benefit other than bragging rights thank you very much.

 

[sx_turbo]

Suggesting that Toyota / Lexus have the clout to take on the German 3, when in reality they will be lucky to still be here in 10 years due to their short sightedness and horrendous business practices. They are so in debt and so behind, they don't stand a chance. At least the German 3 are taking the ICE to EV transition seriously rather than lobbying against it (even if they were caught out and are now having to do it sooner than originally planned).

Toyota's long-range solid-state EV batteries will be more limited than expected

After unveiling plans for breakthrough solid-state EV batteries, promising unrealistic long-range capabilities, it seems Toyota’s tech will be in short...

electrek.co

Pretty certain they are on track to what their plans are, they were caught out they've decided not to rush and take the time they've been given to produce decent ev's, ev's aren't selling big like everyone thought they would, demamd is right down and I think Toyota foresee this would be the case, whereas others like ford, are probably the onea rhat have been caught with their pants down, they had to come up with an ev roadmap, with almost no prior r&d, hybrid wasnt on their radar, and they just wanted to do ice. They've had to thrash out hybrid power trains on the hop and they don't have an EV platform and plan to use VW's EV platform which is the id3/4/5 (btw the id5 looks suspiciously like the mg5 from years back??)

 

[Monkeynut]

Mercedes started going downhill after the W210 (E class).
These things were pure junk, and any time me or any of the other salesmen would hand one over to the customer we'd have bets on how long it'd be before it was back in the workshop with the dash lit up like a christmas tree.
The current A class at the time was almost as terrible.
Fast forward to modern times and them lobbing Renault engines into the lower range tier of their cars, coupled with all kinds of faults we used to find on PDI and the amount of remedial work that needed doing, doesn't really inspire confidence in the brand.
I'd love to know how many customers bought an A, B, C class etc without knowing what was under the bonnet.

Weren't they using the same Renault diesels that were going into Dacia at one point?

 

[blun]

This is exactly Toyota’s plan. There is always an amazing product “coming soon” - if you could just buy another hybrid now please. They launched a hydrogen fuel cell car a decade ago which is useless and they can’t give them away. But they don’t mind because they know the product has no future- it’s just a distraction. Their magical solid state batteries are a distraction.

From the article posted above: “Toyota has made a lot of promises in the past that have yet to come to fruition.”

All they have is hybrids which were clever 20 years ago but not in the 2020’s. Let’s be clear too- hybrids are just petrol cars that get a few extra MPG- a way to make them look a bit less bad than previous combustion cars to keep selling combustion engines until the bitter end.

EV demand is not down- especially in many of Toyota’s main markets. They’re losing out massively especially in places where Chinese EVs are available. Even to the point where they have rebadged a Chinese EV to sell in China because they can’t sell their petrol cars.

“The Danish pension company AkademikerPension said last year that through Toyota’s lobbying, the car company has reputedly sought to “weaken legitimate attempts by governments around the world to phase out internal combustion engines, and to phase in fuel economy standards and, critically, pure electric vehicles.”

Toyota Shareholder Revolt - CleanTechnica

The upcoming Toyota AGM may consider motions that demonstrate a shareholder revolt over the companies lagard status in the EV revoluton.

cleantechnica.com

 

[Nasher]

Hybrids are much less of a PITA than EVs though if you actually want to do more than short journeys in a 1st world urban environment. Toyota are trying to stick to what is proven and durable.

Because Toyota is still big in the sorts of countries you can't practically use an EV and having an unreliable car can be genuinely dangerous. I'd much rather use a Toyota to cross a savannah or desert terrain than any of the so called "luxury" brands. An Audi SUV wouldn't last 5 minutes in the outback or central Africa and totally forgot about using an EV.

 

[XeNoN89]

Suggesting that Toyota / Lexus have the clout to take on the German 3, when in reality they will be lucky to still be here in 10 years due to their short sightedness and horrendous business practices. They are so in debt and so behind, they don't stand a chance. At least the German 3 are taking the ICE to EV transition seriously rather than lobbying against it (even if they were caught out and are now having to do it sooner than originally planned).

I think it's far more likely that the companies that are going all in on EV will be the ones to die. EV demand is nowhere near enough for these manufacturers to be forced into making them

 

[Bear]

Yes this totally, been a saying for years.

If it's not got a 6 is it really a bmw

Damn my v8 BMW is not a real BMW, nobody told me this when I bought it !!

 

[Nasher]

I think it's far more likely that the companies that are going all in on EV will be the ones to die. EV demand is nowhere near enough for these manufacturers to be forced into making them

Yep, which is why they are now cutting back on EV manufacturing already. Almost all of them are fleet cars, used for 3 years and dumped on the used market and don't sell.

 

[john_smith]

Mercedes started going downhill after the W210 (E class).
...
Fast forward to modern times and them lobbing Renault engines into the lower range tier of their cars

I think the f1 team must be doing this as well now.

 

[blun]

Yep, which is why they are now cutting back on EV manufacturing already. Almost all of them are fleet cars, used for 3 years and dumped on the used market and don't sell.

I hear stuff like this on forums and social media but then when you look at the actual real-world:

The Vibes Lie: Electric Vehicles Accelerate Toward 50% Of Global Sales

Data from The International Energy Agency’s Global EV Outlook 2024 makes vibes-based reporting on the demise of EV sales look silly - global EV sales could hit 17 million in 2024, meaning more than one in five cars sold worldwide will be electric.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energy...hicles-accelerate-toward-50-of-global-sales/#

It’s survive or die time for manufacturers. The German manufacturers are in a fairly good place, but the Japanese brands are not.

I know people that don’t want to change feel threatened, but there is no need. There will be combustion cars available new for several years yet, and used ones for 20-30+ years. As we’ve seen for example with Audi there is just no new development going into combustion engines.

 

[Nasher]

I hear stuff like this on forums and social media but then when you look at the actual real-world:

The Vibes Lie: Electric Vehicles Accelerate Toward 50% Of Global Sales

Data from The International Energy Agency’s Global EV Outlook 2024 makes vibes-based reporting on the demise of EV sales look silly - global EV sales could hit 17 million in 2024, meaning more than one in five cars sold worldwide will be electric.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/energy...hicles-accelerate-toward-50-of-global-sales/#

It’s survive or die time for manufacturers. The German manufacturers are in a fairly good place, but the Japanese brands are not.

I know people that don’t want to change feel threatened, but there is no need. There will be combustion cars available new for several years yet, and used ones for 20-30+ years. As we’ve seen for example with Audi there is just no new development going into combustion engines.

Not sure there has been any new development with Audi (VW) engines for a long time anyway. They just load more toys in to the infotainment system and up the price.

 

[sx_turbo]

Not sure there has been any new development with Audi (VW) engines for a long time anyway. They just load more toys in to the infotainment system and up the price.

On the point of development, manufacturers tend to redesign an an engine and have the basic design for circa 10-15 years, over that period they do small incremental changes to better refine it.

Recently manufactures base designs have been lasting them much longer, the original VW EA113 2.0 TSI/tfsi design has been around for 20+ years with minor design tweaks to improve combustion and efficiency.

The reason being the combustion engine has been around for a very long time and further gains are harder and harder to obtain.

The biggest improvement in combustion engines is in the emissions, but even now they are at a point of deminishing returns.

I don't believe development has stopped, (although now the focus has certainly shifted)

 

[R4z0r]

I’d say they are still generally the prestige option in their class. They certainly aren’t exclusive anymore though.

 

[sparton_SPA]

I'm someone that has always been biased towards the German OEMs - however more and more recently been attracted to consider non-German brands.
Nothing to do with the cars themselves, but just to have something that is different. Something that doesn't look like a taxi, but has something different to talk about compared to a Monochrome German car.

 

[Greebo]

I'm someone that has always been biased towards the German OEMs - however more and more recently been attracted to consider non-German brands.
Nothing to do with the cars themselves, but just to have something that is different. Something that doesn't look like a taxi, but has something different to talk about compared to a Monochrome German car.

I must admi it does help with the likes of BMW making their cars look uglier and uglier every year. There is good reason the XM was available recently at half price - £80k and even then they struggled to shift them.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

I can understand that. I have always wanted a Lexus estate but nothing ever materialised. Their GS 450H always seemed like a good sweet spot in terms of power and fuel economy.

JLR are a broke company though. Surely Toyota have the financial clout to take on the German 3. They have managed it in the States and China.

Financial clout? How do people invent stuff like this. Toyota is close to the most endebted company in the world.

The debt of Toyota is massive compared to JLR, like 300 times more... Meanwhile the 'broke company' has the best results since 2015. Talking >£29bn of revenue - 4.4bn Profit

 

[Nasher]

I must admi it does help with the likes of BMW making their cars look uglier and uglier every year. There is good reason the XM was available recently at half price - £80k and even then they struggled to shift them.

The depreciation on those and the IX is insane. Unattractive cars in every way.