Um....I take it for the purposes of that statement you're going to ignore the existence of the Buick LaCrosse Super and the Chevy Impala SS? 'cause they're both front wheel drive and both use the LS4 GM small-block V8, which I'm pretty sure develops a tad more than 280 horsies....
vectra vxr
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Um....I take it for the purposes of that statement you're going to ignore the existence of the Buick LaCrosse Super and the Chevy Impala SS? 'cause they're both front wheel drive and both use the LS4 GM small-block V8, which I'm pretty sure develops a tad more than 280 horsies....
The S80 and S60 are 240ps which i think is roughly 236BHP, and is more of a saloon than a V70 is
The S80 and S60 are 240ps which i think is roughly 236BHP, and is more of a saloon than a V70 is
knew there'd be one with slightly more somewhere. Damn !
still not more than 250 though
The T6 with 300bhp is 4x4 only.![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
Well no, its more because big power sells cars and it's too expensive to develop an RWD platform from scratch just for the high powered models.
There are not many people who would argue that 300bhp and FWD is a winning combination. It isnt just me being fussy.
Fox in "unable to believe somebody has a different opinion to his" shocker 
There are loads of vectra VXR owners like me who dont mind its handling characteristics. Plenty more than dont mind, but yours isnt the "right" viewpoint any more than mine is, but both are different.
There are loads of vectra VXR owners like me who dont mind its handling characteristics. Plenty more than dont mind, but yours isnt the "right" viewpoint any more than mine is, but both are different.
Where the hell did that come from?
So you actually think the reason 300bhp FWD cars exist is because some people like 300bhp FWD cars? You actually think that? Seriously?
Don't be so ridiculous. It exists because of cost. Nobody sets out and actively chooses to build an FWD car with 300bhp unless there is a good production reason why. In the case of the Focus RS it's because it's a Focus which is an FWD platform (And for good reason, an RWD or 4WD Focus would be expensive and pointless given 90% of Focus suits FWD perfectly). The reason why the 270bhp Aurion is FWD is because it's based on the FWD Camry and the cost of making it RWD was prohibitive. The reason why the Vectra VXR is front wheel drive is because it is a Vauxhall Vectra, a car which sells mostly as a fleet market diesel for which FWD is perfectly suitable and a perfectly rational choice given the production goals of a car like that.
The cost of tooling up RWD specifically for performance models is so high that its virtually pointless. Only stupid companies would make a particular version of one car RWD. A stupid company like Rover - the 75 V8 is RWD not FWD. And it's a far better car as a result, and would have been crap as FWD. Yet it cost a fortune to do and they probably never made a single penny in profit on it as a result.
Nobody building a 300bhp car from scratch without the contraints of an existing platform would select front wheel drive. Therefore the reason they exist is down to practical production reasons, mostly focused on cost.
etc etc.
lol classic MrLOL
That line about not being able to beleive people have a different opinion to me just makes you look stupid. Of course people have a different opinion to me, if they didnt we'd not be discussing this as you'd have nodded and said 'I agree'.
Don't be so ridiculous. It exists because of cost. Nobody sets out and actively chooses to build an FWD car with 300bhp unless there is a good production reason why. In the case of the Focus RS it's because it's a Focus which is an FWD platform (And for good reason, an RWD or 4WD Focus would be expensive and pointless given 90% of Focus suits FWD perfectly). The reason why the 270bhp Aurion is FWD is because it's based on the FWD Camry and the cost of making it RWD was prohibitive. The reason why the Vectra VXR is front wheel drive is because it is a Vauxhall Vectra, a car which sells mostly as a fleet market diesel for which FWD is perfectly suitable and a perfectly rational choice given the production goals of a car like that.
The cost of tooling up RWD specifically for performance models is so high that its virtually pointless. Only stupid companies would make a particular version of one car RWD. A stupid company like Rover - the 75 V8 is RWD not FWD. And it's a far better car as a result, and would have been crap as FWD. Yet it cost a fortune to do and they probably never made a single penny in profit on it as a result.
Nobody building a 300bhp car from scratch without the contraints of an existing platform would select front wheel drive. Therefore the reason they exist is down to practical production reasons, mostly focused on cost.
etc etc.
lol classic MrLOL
That line about not being able to beleive people have a different opinion to me just makes you look stupid. Of course people have a different opinion to me, if they didnt we'd not be discussing this as you'd have nodded and said 'I agree'.
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It would cost even more if they made it and nobody bought it
Of course its a nice benefit that its cheaper to make and inexpensive to develop etc.. but they wouldnt do it if the market wasnt there. As vaux discovered with the Vectra, and had to make the Insignia 4x4 in an attempt to get it to sell better.
Of course its a nice benefit that its cheaper to make and inexpensive to develop etc.. but they wouldnt do it if the market wasnt there. As vaux discovered with the Vectra, and had to make the Insignia 4x4 in an attempt to get it to sell better.
Yes they would. And you've touched on the reason why earlier in the thread without knowing it. The Vectra VXR is a rare beast. I would be very suprised if the cost of designing and producing it was anything more than simply broken even on as a result of the low sales volume. Infact if you told me it made a loss I'd beleive you.
But this doesnt matter as I doubt the point in the Vectra VXR was to make a profit. It was a halo model. It was there to boost the reputation of the brand in general and it was there to sell more bread and butter cars. Reppy McCarpetSales might crave a VXR but he cant have one. But wait, he can have a 1.9 CTDi SRi with VXR Styling Pack One fitted. So he ordered that instead of the Toyota Avensis.
And yes, there was obviously a limited market. But that limit was DESPITE the fact it was FWD not BECAUSE of the fact it was FWD. Nobody goes 'I fancy a 300bhp front wheel driver car'. They go 'I fancy a 300bhp car' and if one happens to be FWD, they might be happy to tolerate that in order to obtain other benefits from that product but they'd never buy it because of its drivetrain.
In contrast, many people would buy because a car was 4WD or RWD - there are numerous people on here for example who request us to spec them a performance car with the requirement 'Must be RWD' or 'Must be 4WD'. FWD on a car like this is something you put up with because maybe its not that bad or maybe the rest of the car is so good that its just one negative aspect that you decide doesnt matter to you.
Hang on is that you agreeing with me
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i never implied it was BECAUSE it was FWD
i said some people didnt mind it. Untwist your knickers
i said some people didnt mind it. Untwist your knickers
To be fair you said they make them BECAUSE people dont mind understeer. No, they make them because its cheaper to do so, and people still buy them as they don't mind understeer
Cost is the reason they MAKE them, people not minding is the reason they subsequently sell a few
Cost is the reason they MAKE them, people not minding is the reason they subsequently sell a few
OK everyone is saying the Vauxhall VXR is understeering due to engine torque. Well there is 2 types of understeer. Power understeer, and understeer due to balance of the car, by this I mean the difference in front/rear lateral corner grip.
For example: If you drove the VXR around a large roundabout (with EPS off), 'gently' increasing speed the car would understeer at limit. This is totally regardless of torque being applied to the front wheels.
Vauxhall setup the VXR to understeer as it's safer to control on limit, true at least for drivers lacking high speed corner experience. To bias the car to understeer a rear anti roll car is absent from the VXR. Rear anti roll bars are critical to balance in a FWD car, yet Vauxhall decided not to fit.
Corning balance has nothing todo with FWD/RWD layouts, and a FWD car can very easily to made to oversteer if required.
For example: If you drove the VXR around a large roundabout (with EPS off), 'gently' increasing speed the car would understeer at limit. This is totally regardless of torque being applied to the front wheels.
Vauxhall setup the VXR to understeer as it's safer to control on limit, true at least for drivers lacking high speed corner experience. To bias the car to understeer a rear anti roll car is absent from the VXR. Rear anti roll bars are critical to balance in a FWD car, yet Vauxhall decided not to fit.
Corning balance has nothing todo with FWD/RWD layouts, and a FWD car can very easily to made to oversteer if required.
Totally agree with this. I own a Integra that shares the same seat frames as some EVO's. People say the Integra is a bone shaker, and poor for long distances but it's simply not correct. I recently drove a 7 hour round trip taking my gf from Manchester to London airport with no back pain, and only very slight stiffness after standing up (you get that sitting on a chair in your house for 3 hours!). This is even with after-market lowered seat rail, i'm 37 btw.
I do however have a GC-lock fitted that helps improve posture by preventing me from slipping forward in the seat.
What if you'd want to cruise the autobahn continuously at high speeds ? When accelerating from say 100mph upwards, there is certainly a point in more than 225bhp in a fwd car...
That said, it is indeed catastrophic at low speeds, I managed to get the galant at it's rev limiter&going straight when I floored in second at a sharpish corner with it's mere 160 bhp, let alone 225+
, it was wet but still, with more power it'd only be far easier.
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What if you'd want to cruise the autobahn continuously at high speeds ? When accelerating from say 100mph upwards, there is certainly a point in more than 225bhp in a fwd car...
That said, it is indeed catastrophic at low speeds, I managed to get the galant at it's rev limiter&going straight when I floored in second at a sharpish corner with it's mere 160 bhp, let alone 225+
What % of driving is done at over 100mph though? Im sure there are no stats out there but i would imagine it to be a very low percentage.
Its a case of each to their own however to me it seems now that hot hatches are rapidly reaching the point of needing to move on from a FWD platfrom. The current generation of mid to large hot hatches are kicking out anything from 250bhp upwards. Whats the next gen going to be? Circa 300bhp? I personally think that hot hatches will soon start to go AWD as is the case with the Insignia VXR and Audi with their hot hatch offerings