It's absolutely a US problem when you've got migrant caravans heading there week after week, what's funny is that the left who have been banging the Trump/Russia collusion drum for 2 years solid are taking the side of Putin over Trump with this. Trump is just evil for wanting to overthrow a leader who has precided over the suffering of millions of people through failed economic policy, he's evil for wanting to stop those millions storming the US border over the next few years, he's evil for wanting to fix the problem at source. He just can't win can he?
Venezuela the failed socialist state - Rising tensions.
- Thread starter terley
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It's absolutely a US problem when you've got migrant caravans heading there week after week, what's funny is that the left who have been banging the Trump/Russia collusion drum for 2 years solid are taking the side of Putin over Trump with this. Trump is just evil for wanting to overthrow a leader who has precided over the suffering of millions of people through failed economic policy, he's evil for wanting to stop those millions storming the US border over the next few years, he's evil for wanting to fix the problem at source. He just can't win can he?
Corbyn seems a bit quite on it all these days.. bit strange given the below:
Hunt getting in a quick burn tho...
But but.... real socialism hasn't been tried yet!
Hunt getting in a quick burn tho...
But but.... real socialism hasn't been tried yet!
Soldato
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Corbyn's faults are well known, but turning this into a socialism bash, GD meme splooge-fest is a bit too simple and largely misses the point.
Even one of the most established establishment US think tanks does not lead with 'OMG SOCIALISM'; get your knickers straight for a nuanced view, chaps.
It's a decent read:
Latin America has had a fair share of right wing dictators, riding exactly the same base as Chavez and Maduro. Russia is a case in point in Europe: bigger; repressed; exactly the same source of wealth and very similar problems; yet diametrically ideologically opposed.
Which ideology authoritarians use to paint their rear for the public is largely immaterial. It can shift as quickly as it arises. They are the purest pragmatists known to man - whatever works to survive will do. Geopolitically rent-a-riot is also common. It's cheaper than outright military intervention.
The fundamental cause is so common, in fact, petrostate is both in the dictionary and textbooks!
Even one of the most established establishment US think tanks does not lead with 'OMG SOCIALISM'; get your knickers straight for a nuanced view, chaps.
It's a decent read:
Latin America has had a fair share of right wing dictators, riding exactly the same base as Chavez and Maduro. Russia is a case in point in Europe: bigger; repressed; exactly the same source of wealth and very similar problems; yet diametrically ideologically opposed.
Which ideology authoritarians use to paint their rear for the public is largely immaterial. It can shift as quickly as it arises. They are the purest pragmatists known to man - whatever works to survive will do. Geopolitically rent-a-riot is also common. It's cheaper than outright military intervention.
The fundamental cause is so common, in fact, petrostate is both in the dictionary and textbooks!
Ultimately whatever government/ideology, regardless of whether it's neoliberalism /socialism/communism /etc, you follow sooner or later power and wealth tends to become increasingly concentrated in the hands of the few.
I think the real cause of tensions in the West is that folk have realised there are increasingly privately owned companies/conglomerates/cartels out there which are actually more powerful than the government's who are elected to supposedly represent them! If people become disenfranchised enough they start voting for ever more extreme forms of government just to bring about some kind of change. Often this isn't for the better in the short term unfortunately.
Also, this +1
The other elephant in the room is that it often suits the interests of other countries if these mineral rich developing nations are run as authoritarian dictatorships where a tiny minority control everything.
I think the real cause of tensions in the West is that folk have realised there are increasingly privately owned companies/conglomerates/cartels out there which are actually more powerful than the government's who are elected to supposedly represent them! If people become disenfranchised enough they start voting for ever more extreme forms of government just to bring about some kind of change. Often this isn't for the better in the short term unfortunately.
Also, this +1
The other elephant in the room is that it often suits the interests of other countries if these mineral rich developing nations are run as authoritarian dictatorships where a tiny minority control everything.
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Yet he implies that they're evil, bad hombres or somesuch. The American Right has a nasty habit of dressing up as nice lovely people, but immediately the facade is revealed if you let them speak for more than a few seconds as nasty bitter hypocrites.
If Venezuelans are terrorised, then the US should welcome the downtrodden with open arms surely?
Trump is inches away from being hanged himself, he's going to need some sympathy at some point.
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It is depressing to read the orgasmic glee with which the antisocial brigade look on at and revel in the disaster that is Venezuela.
These selfish people with their self-righteous sense of entitlement would probably describe themselves as Christians despite never having read the Bible and only visiting a church for a hypocritical wedding or funeral. I suspect that they despise Charities and admire Pay-day Loan companies.
These selfish people with their self-righteous sense of entitlement would probably describe themselves as Christians despite never having read the Bible and only visiting a church for a hypocritical wedding or funeral. I suspect that they despise Charities and admire Pay-day Loan companies.
Soldato
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The Economist has been writing regularly on Venezuela for years. A lot of the situation today was predicted a long time ago when the oil price collapsed and the country did nothing to adjust their spending to match losing three quarters of their income (roughly $120/barrel to $30). Add in incompetence and corruption, appropriation of any asset worth anything (whether owned by Venezuelans or evil foreigners), stealing all the cash coming in from the state oil company so that they could not keep pumping oil, imposing price controls on food that meant producers were forced to supply basics at below cost and you have a recipe for disaster.
I suspect this will only end one way, some General or other will put a bullet into Maduro when even the army stops being paid.
I suspect this will only end one way, some General or other will put a bullet into Maduro when even the army stops being paid.
Soldato
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Not a fan of how the country has been run, Hugo and Maduro have been terrible leaders and incompetence has largely destroyed their country, especially as they didn't do anything after the oil crash.
That said, am against US and everyone attempting the same old sticking their noses in other countries business and using regime change and destroying the country even more.
President Trump shouldn't only build a wall along the border, he should build one around the entire country to keep themselves in.
That said, am against US and everyone attempting the same old sticking their noses in other countries business and using regime change and destroying the country even more.
President Trump shouldn't only build a wall along the border, he should build one around the entire country to keep themselves in.
That gave me a great laugh today
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Soldato
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Isn't it obvious what is going to happen ?
This is going to be Ukraine 2.0, only it will be slightly more difficult for Russia to assist those loyal to Maduro than it was to assist those Ukrainians who wanted to be Russia
This is going to be Ukraine 2.0, only it will be slightly more difficult for Russia to assist those loyal to Maduro than it was to assist those Ukrainians who wanted to be Russia
Literally no on almost every level bar "Russian support", there isn't a Russian-Ukrainian ethnic issue which was entirely the justification that Putin gave, they'd have to literally cross US controlled pacific waters for weeks aswell, its just lol.
Soldato
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Never said there was
But the country is destined to enter a civil war and if you don't think Putin will offer assistance to Maduro and allies you're a fool
I've been following the political situation in Venezuela for a long while (political geek and it interests me) - my Spanish isn't up to scratch so translations and English Language websites have been my sources.
While I'm no fan of socialism, its more of a failed petro-state with hyper partisan politics, an unbelievably stupid government and an opposition that couldn't plan their way out of a paper bag. They have price controls and done a bit of expropriation, but they're nowhere near places like Cuba. They've tried the one party state thing but even on the left there are many factions - while the PSUV (the governing party) have pulled tricks (an example from a Chavez supporting website https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13882) they don't have single domination even on the left, with the Communists and various communes winning elections against the PSUV (that is when the results are not stolen away from them).
Probably the most egregious anti-democratic things to happen in recent years was the National Constituent Assembly taking over day to day running of things from the Congress thanks to a dodgy supreme court decision (packed with Chavista loyalists) and a bizarre interpretation of the constitution; and the government distributing food parcels via their local party infrastructure (called CLAPs) rather than via the state. Want to eat and you're living in a poor barrio? Best not be known as an opposition supporter!
The opposition are a complete bunch of jokers. They've refused to participate in recent elections (national constituent assembly elections, then municipalities, then governorships, then the presenidential elections in May last year). They had the PSUV on the run in 2013, with the loss of congress then the guarimbas (huge street protests), they fell about arguing and eventually decided on mostly withdrawing from the political scene, allowing the PSUV with win election after election even though citizens were pretty hacked off with the government. My guess is that lots of venezuelans can't stand either side, stuck between an incompetent government and an opposition likely to be just as useless if they get in power.
All in all, I can't see a good solution available.
While I'm no fan of socialism, its more of a failed petro-state with hyper partisan politics, an unbelievably stupid government and an opposition that couldn't plan their way out of a paper bag. They have price controls and done a bit of expropriation, but they're nowhere near places like Cuba. They've tried the one party state thing but even on the left there are many factions - while the PSUV (the governing party) have pulled tricks (an example from a Chavez supporting website https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13882) they don't have single domination even on the left, with the Communists and various communes winning elections against the PSUV (that is when the results are not stolen away from them).
Probably the most egregious anti-democratic things to happen in recent years was the National Constituent Assembly taking over day to day running of things from the Congress thanks to a dodgy supreme court decision (packed with Chavista loyalists) and a bizarre interpretation of the constitution; and the government distributing food parcels via their local party infrastructure (called CLAPs) rather than via the state. Want to eat and you're living in a poor barrio? Best not be known as an opposition supporter!
The opposition are a complete bunch of jokers. They've refused to participate in recent elections (national constituent assembly elections, then municipalities, then governorships, then the presenidential elections in May last year). They had the PSUV on the run in 2013, with the loss of congress then the guarimbas (huge street protests), they fell about arguing and eventually decided on mostly withdrawing from the political scene, allowing the PSUV with win election after election even though citizens were pretty hacked off with the government. My guess is that lots of venezuelans can't stand either side, stuck between an incompetent government and an opposition likely to be just as useless if they get in power.
All in all, I can't see a good solution available.
Quite a large amount of the armed forces loyal to Maduro seem to be digging in along the routes most directly connecting the country towards the US almost as if they think they are going to be repelling a ground invasion by the US - not sure what that is all about but certainly wouldn't go well for them if the US did take military action and they almost certainly wouldn't be rolling heavy armour through Mexico and down on through to Colombia.
While Russia has learnt a lot in terms of logistics with Syria they certainly aren't going to be setting up shop in Venezuela any support will be background stuff - IIRC they don't even have a working aircraft carrier (technically a heavy missile cruiser w/ aircraft capibilities) after recent accidents. Never mind the problems of sending significant forces into the US's backyard.
EDIT: Looking a bit more into it seems the goal is probably to prevent paramilitaries and other armed groups from trying to exploit the situation and/or to prevent armed groups entering the country trying to orchestrate a coup as happened a few weeks back.
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Something people dont seem to realise is that unlike in other countries where the Army is loyal to protecting the state... The Army in Venezuela is loyal to protecting the government, this is how the army has been created and bred in that country.
Soldato
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Why would Russia even need to get involved physically when Mexico, Argentina, Bolivia, and Brazil all supporting the current president?
It's common across left wing Authoritarian states (which can just be abbreviated as left wing states because its impossible to be free when the government forciblely controls property rights), as one of the approaches used is to take the position that the government and the state are one and the same (see also the ussr and related satellite countries, China, other failed South American socialist states).
It's all part of the process that always results from the implementation of the ideology, and the proponents of the ideology still blame everything else.
in countries like this..the army is loyal as long as they are paid
they have something stupid like 2000 generals as cronies have been promoted way above their abilities
same with the oil industry....cronies promoted to run a business they have no clue about, which is why the infrastructure has crumbled and the ecosystem in Lake Maracaibo has collapsed because of pollution
they have something stupid like 2000 generals as cronies have been promoted way above their abilities
same with the oil industry....cronies promoted to run a business they have no clue about, which is why the infrastructure has crumbled and the ecosystem in Lake Maracaibo has collapsed because of pollution