Indeed he is but you need to weigh up the fact he's had 3 seasons now and is only the top scorer because of an extremely poor Blackburn defense.
For 30 million on a striker, I would expect him to be there or thereabouts every single season.
Weekend Football 15th-16th Jan
- Thread starter AGD
- Start date
Indeed he is but you need to weigh up the fact he's had 3 seasons now and is only the top scorer because of an extremely poor Blackburn defense.
For 30 million on a striker, I would expect him to be there or thereabouts every single season.
Associate
- Joined
- 26 Mar 2009
- Posts
- 1,807
- Location
- State of Volatile Apathy
Veron was World Class whether he played in Brazil and Italy or not, he was Argentina's main play maker in the World Cup, years after he had left MU and Italy. The problem was he couldn't settle, he was used to being the top dog with every passage of play going through him, in England he was playing with equally gifted midfielders who dictated the play as well.
He always looked lost to me in most matches in the Prem but when he was up against foreign opposition he was class.
I will never forget his performance against Tottenham at WHL when we were 3-0 at half time.
When did I say Verón had no quality? And yes, I have seen him both pre- and post-United.
Both of you really need to think what 'world class' really means; does it mean a player that any team in the world would be glad to play, or a player that any team in certain leagues would be glad to play because of the distribution of his strengths and his mentality.
I'm not drawing any definite conclusions on his quality here, just that we do not definitely know if he is truly world class because firstly the barometers of his previous success are Brazil and Italy, and secondly he flopped in England at the biggest club in the world at the time - you need to question why this happened if he was truly 'world class', emphasis on the former?
All this lies beside the original point anyway, which is Verón was slated because he played awfully and not because of anything concerning trophies. I was incorrect on the year he was bought, but we did win the Premiership again the Summer he was sold, so I still don't really see the correlation of the original point.
Absolutely ridiculous.
And I suppose the fact that Real came in for him at 'lowly Wigan' just means they were short of cleaning staff?
Nope, nice strawman though.
My only disagreement here is that I don't believe the majority of fans or anywhere close judge players based purely on silverware, as you said. Performances are what count, maybe overly so as you did mention the clamour to sign the always-running but mentally-deficient Tevez above.
The argument is about fans seeing things only in terms of trophies.
And who said we're so crap?
Again, no.
People that think in terms of what you originally described would be idiots because of the criterion we have previously discussed (i.e. they are wrong) and would be in the minority because of my personal experience discussing football for God knows how many years without ever encountering someone seriously asserting what you said (other than Arsenal fans, and in their case you can sort of understand the exception). I just brought up this forum because it's a relatively good cross-section of a footballing fanbase.
I have no idea whether you're talking in general or not about 'bitching about every little thing' part. I support United and have opinions on the team, most of them positive, but I certainly don't go in for the 'unconditional obedience' thing.
Discussions on United may tend to skew the ratio of positives versus negatives, as you tend to get more traction discussing what to do with what's going wrong rather than just nodding along to what's being done right.
But again, this is a tangent.
Last edited:
I'm telling you now he was World Class, the point of my post being that he couldn't settle in England and struggled at United and Chelsea but bang he goes abroad and all of a sudden he's class again.
Foreign players just sometimes don't settle, it's happened a million times before, they don't cease being great players.
Messi could come to the Premier League, if he couldn't settle would he all of a sudden not be the best player in the World any more?
Of course he wouldn't.
Associate
- Joined
- 26 Mar 2009
- Posts
- 1,807
- Location
- State of Volatile Apathy
And I am saying for someone to be 'world class' then:
a) How long do you hold the player's hand for before it becomes unreasonable? Mentality is a large and often ignored part of a player's quality, if this does not stand up to scrutiny then it is an indictment on that player's quality as circumstance can only be blamed so far.
b) If his playing style does not hold up to large and important leagues in the world, then is this player truly 'world class'?
As I've already posted, there's been plenty of players who've been 'world-beaters' but ultimately turned out to be let-downs because their playing style didn't translate or they didn't have the mentality.
I have no conclusions on Verón, and to be honest we'll probably never know for sure. But I still have to hear substantive answers to my questions beyond the usual 'oh yer but he was still well good' claptrap.
a) How long do you hold the player's hand for before it becomes unreasonable? Mentality is a large and often ignored part of a player's quality, if this does not stand up to scrutiny then it is an indictment on that player's quality as circumstance can only be blamed so far.
b) If his playing style does not hold up to large and important leagues in the world, then is this player truly 'world class'?
As I've already posted, there's been plenty of players who've been 'world-beaters' but ultimately turned out to be let-downs because their playing style didn't translate or they didn't have the mentality.
I have no conclusions on Verón, and to be honest we'll probably never know for sure. But I still have to hear substantive answers to my questions beyond the usual 'oh yer but he was still well good' claptrap.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 1 Mar 2008
- Posts
- 26,303
To me, he appeared to be struggling with his role in UTD's side. At Spurs, we built the team around him. At UTD, he needed to fit in with everyone else.
Much like the Veron situation then, my point still stands, when you have spunked that much money on 2 players you expect them to adapt.
Soldato
- Joined
- 8 Mar 2003
- Posts
- 3,007
- Location
- Hobbiton
Harry wont get the England job now that Woy is out of work
Fair enough you said "it might be a case of him not having the quality to begin with" but it definitely read like you were questioning his ability
As for the term world class for me it means a player that can do things most (if any) other players cannot. For me for his passing if nothing else Veron was World Class
Actually the season following the summer he was sold was the season Arsenal went unbeaten so the only thing we managed that season was the FA Cup
Julien Faubert played for Real Madrid as well, what does them being in for Valencia have to do with anything?
Ok let me put it this way; United win the title this season and play rubbish football, next season sell Carrick, Scholes and Giggs aren't offered new deals and instead we sign Sneijder, Modric & Bale they all play well but United dont win anything will the fact that they all played well be any crumb of comfort to the likes of the fans that I'm talking about? I somewhat doubt it to be honest
The same theory applies to football clubs in general, teams are remember for what they win not for the pretty football they play should they end the season with no reward
The flack the current team gets despite being top of the league and unbeaten certainly points that many feel the current side isn't good
I've admitted that this isn't the greatest United team ever, neither Carrick or Fletcher currently are playing as well as they have done previously but I dont buy that opposing to opinions that Carrick should be sold instantly is 'unconditional obedience' (for example)
Earlier in this thread I opposed to it being said that Fergie doesn't know when players are past it due to him playing Neville at times this season is that 'unconditional obedience' as well?
At the moment United are top of the league, last season they lost out to the title by a point until a time where that is not the case imo United fans dont have that much to complain about tbh. Fair enough talk about improvement but to criticise the players that have got us in this position simply because the football isn't pretty just stinks of spoiltness imo
Which is really what my argument is all about, fans see the likes of Modric who is probably a better player than Carrick and want him in the team instead of someone (Carrick) who has proven to be integral to winning titles in the past
In fact at the time of signing Carrick no one thought he was capable of replacing Roy Keane and yet in his 4 full seasons at United we've won 3 titles, 2 Carling Cups & a Champions League
Who's to say singing a big name player guarantee's the same level of success? Personally I think sticking with the tried and tested is better than playing football manager and signing up the latest flavour of the month - kinda like City are doing, arguably their best player of last season they sent on loan to Cardiff and in his place they've got Balotelli
Fergie obviously feels that in the transfer windows gone by no one has been available that is better fit for United than what we have, who are we to argue?
Last edited:
Good, 'Respect the Ref' enforced for once.Rafael charged with improper conduct for his reaction to being sent off. Should please Taggart
Caporegime
- Joined
- 9 Mar 2006
- Posts
- 58,010
- Location
- Surrey
Doesn't surprise me, is Evra getting a ban as well?
He hardly did anything? :/
Didn't that come in before City came into money?
Soldato
- Joined
- 29 Dec 2004
- Posts
- 17,072
- Location
- Shepley
If I was going to resort to personal insults, I'd tell you to **** off. Fortunately, I won't stoop to that level.
If I was going to resort to personal insults, I'd tell you to **** off. Fortunately, I won't stoop to that level.
/cuddle.
Apart from go mental at the ref?, Rooney got involved also but considering he was born in England he won't get charged likewise with Rio Ferdinand.