- Joined
- 12 Mar 2009
- Posts
- 26,776
I think if Wenger bought him then we'd be seeing a good player become much better. Instead we see a good player be depressed by a favouritist coach who will soon get the sack regardless. Enjoy the Europa league Lpool.
Weekend Football Thread *spoilers*
- Thread starter K1LLSW1TCH
- Start date
Caporegime
You seem to have overlooked everything people have told you about Babel and come to the conclusion he's some world class player based on his record in a poor league. Enjoy being ignorant K1LLSW1TCH 
- Joined
- 12 Mar 2009
- Posts
- 26,776
That isn't true at all. I don't see how my opinion and others opinion can be cast as fact. If someone simply says that one player is poor or good, that is their opinion, not a fact. My main points that I was trying to make was that Benitez is a poor man manager, and that Babel is not a horrible player, he's good, and needs to be nurtured to become world class. Benitez hasn't given him much of a chance and on page 2 there's the stats to back that argument up. The same can be said of when Robbie Keane was at the Kop.
I'm happy to listen to anybodies point of view but what I don't appreciate are the little digs at me personally. I have not come into (or indeed created) this thread to make personal attacks on people and I don't expect it done to me in return either.
If saying I think one manager is poor compared to another manager, or one player is good compared to another player then I shouldn't need to expect a volley of abuse, especially when a certain person in this thread has felt the need to criticise me with one line responses, yet has added absolutely no creative input into this thread at all, and that isn't you by the way Pigeon_Killer.
If you think I am ignorant then you are entitled to your opinion, but I think it would be ignorant of you to not realise that I have not made a remark on any posters character in this thread.
I'm happy to listen to anybodies point of view but what I don't appreciate are the little digs at me personally. I have not come into (or indeed created) this thread to make personal attacks on people and I don't expect it done to me in return either.
If saying I think one manager is poor compared to another manager, or one player is good compared to another player then I shouldn't need to expect a volley of abuse, especially when a certain person in this thread has felt the need to criticise me with one line responses, yet has added absolutely no creative input into this thread at all, and that isn't you by the way Pigeon_Killer.
If you think I am ignorant then you are entitled to your opinion, but I think it would be ignorant of you to not realise that I have not made a remark on any posters character in this thread.
Caporegime
Nobody thinks Babel is World Class, but he could become a very good player.
I don't think it's all down to Rafa, I agree he's not as good at bringing through young players as per say Wenger.
Babel not developing is down to Babel as much as it is Rafa, infact more so down to Babel.
The English Premier League really isn't that strong if you're talking about the ability of English talent either Pegeon. That's another arguement.
I don't think it's all down to Rafa, I agree he's not as good at bringing through young players as per say Wenger.
Babel not developing is down to Babel as much as it is Rafa, infact more so down to Babel.
The English Premier League really isn't that strong if you're talking about the ability of English talent either Pegeon. That's another arguement.
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Feb 2004
- Posts
- 9,492
I think Babel looked like a gem before he came to Liverpool but it just hasnt worked out for him there for one reason or another.
This doesnt make him a bad player. I do think he would have been better off at Arsenal. It must be quite a pressure being in a team with torres who scores for fun. We dont know what motivates him either, he might need a lot of love from his manager and if his favourite son is torres he might not feel the support is there for him.
I certainly wouldnt mind if we picked up him up in the January window for a knocked down price.
This doesnt make him a bad player. I do think he would have been better off at Arsenal. It must be quite a pressure being in a team with torres who scores for fun. We dont know what motivates him either, he might need a lot of love from his manager and if his favourite son is torres he might not feel the support is there for him.
I certainly wouldnt mind if we picked up him up in the January window for a knocked down price.
I'm sure there are stats that back up an arguement that Pennant didn't get enough chances at Arsenal too. Those stats would ignore the fact that he simply wasn't very good and didn't deserve anymore chances than he got.
If a player is playing **** and other members of your squad are playing better then surely it would be lunacy to leave out the inform players and play the **** one?
Babel's got plenty of ability but he's got a terrible attitude and I'd hate for him to still be at Liverpool past January.
As I posted earlier, the likes of Agger, Reina and Torres were all of a similar age to Babel when they signed, none the finished article and have all gone on to be not too bad.
Also you really need to realise that Wenger's not Jesus. He can't turn water to wine! He may have a decent record with youngsters but there are plenty players in your squad that haven't lived up to all their hype; Walcott, Nasri, Eduardo and Vela to name just a few.
- Joined
- 12 Mar 2009
- Posts
- 26,776
I would disagree with your last paragraph. Nasri, Eduardo and Vela are all very good players and the stats may not necessarily be there to back that up but it isn't just goals that a good player is measured by. Both Nasri and Eduardo have had horrific injuries and both have come back strong. Eduardo is a natural finisher and Nasri came back after a broken leg and scored in either his first or second game back, can't quite remember which. I agree that Walcott hasn't lived up yet but he also has suffered a wealth of injuries and I'd be of the opinion that he played well against Olympiacos although he was admittedly rusty. Vela is very skillful and if you take the time to watch him I think you'll enjoy watching him play.
If you can find sources where any of those players bar Walcott have been overly hyped up then I'll gladly read them. Also Torres was one of Spain's best strikers at the time of signing and any player who scores 3 in a World Cup at that age is good by my standards.
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Feb 2004
- Posts
- 9,492
I think you are being a little harsh on those players. Eduardo has a great scoring record despite his injury 185 apps 113 goals 11 assists in his career.
Walcott was only hyped up because they called him into the England setup way too early which is hardly his fault. And since then he has been very injury prone (like the rest of our squad).
The only hype Nasri had was him being quoted as the next zidane when he hadnt even broken into the French team as a starter. I remember people saying nani being the next ronaldo and look how thats turned out.
Vela hasnt had a fair enough crack at the wip for us to bad mouth him yet with only a handful of starts and mostly in the lesser cups.
Arsenals problem is that we always seem to have a squad of potential world beaters but always seem to be a season off being there.
Personally I think we need to move training grounds or something as we are jinxed with injuries. Half of them dont even take place on the pitch.
So stats are only useful when they back your arguement up?
Nasri cost £12m and has done very little, Eduardo may have had a bad injury but done very little before or after his injury and certainly hasn't looked like the natural finisher you claim and we keep hearing Arsenal fans calling for Vela to play but when he has I can't recall him doing anything of note.
Before we agree to disagree, all I'll say is that I will personally carry Babel to the Emirates if you offered £6 let alone £6m but let me make this clear; there's no 14 day moneyback guarantee!
- Joined
- 12 Mar 2009
- Posts
- 26,776
So stats are only useful when they back your arguement up?
Nasri cost £12m and has done very little, Eduardo may have had a bad injury but done very little before or after his injury and certainly hasn't looked like the natural finisher you claim and we keep hearing Arsenal fans calling for Vela to play but when he has I can't recall him doing anything of note.
Before we agree to disagree, all I'll say is that I will personally carry Babel to the Emirates if you offered £6 let alone £6m but let me make this clear; there's no 14 day moneyback guarantee!
I'll agree to disagree as well. £6 it is and I expect you give him a piggyback all the way from Anfield to Ashburton Grove. By Sunday please!
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
I think Wenger/Benitez should tell Walcott and Babel they are going to be swapped, get them in a car meet half way, stop 100metre's apart have the players walk to the other car like a hostage exchange and both managers should speed off leaving the players stranded, best all around really.
The only even remote hint that Babel was going to look good ever, was a semi decent showing at the under 21's tourney. Of course, under 21's is beyond crap, no one really puts any effort in, despite a full team of premiership starters no one gives a crap about under 21's. Many players have shined in those awful tournements and never shown the same ability in real competition. Other than that tourney Babel's shown no signs of being world class at all, the odd great game, out of 20 isn't good enough. Same goes for Walcott, even on a great game he flukes past players with lucky balls bouncing off legs and dropping in a nice place. I've almost never seen him dribble around a player without the defender getting a touch, mostly taking it off Walcott, rarely dropping nicely for Walcott, even then he's likely to blast it wide or cross behind the goal or hit the first defender in the box.
Nasri's been fairly good, and was good last year, had injuries last year remember. He scored on his first appearance, scored a brace against Chelsea IIRC, and then picked up a few injuries and was moved around in terms of position.
However we bought him the player he is today, likewise Eduardo was a great player when we bought him, he hasn't improved nor needed to at Arsenal. Barely had a run of games ever though. Vela also has never had a run of games which causes two issues, firstly you aren't match fit or confident and secondly if you are sure you'll get one chance then be dropped for 3 months you convince yourself if you get less than a hatrick you won't play again. So you get a over pressured player trying to force a good game which almost never works. Keep in mind the last time Vela got a hatrick, he was dropped for the next game.
EDIT:- THats what Fergie is doing well, even when they have awful performances Welbeck and Gibson know they'll get another chance, the pressure eases off and they have been improving. The more relaxed they become in the first team the better then end up playing which at least lets you see if they'll ever be good enough. They might not be, they might be crap, but at least they get the chance to give it their best.
The only even remote hint that Babel was going to look good ever, was a semi decent showing at the under 21's tourney. Of course, under 21's is beyond crap, no one really puts any effort in, despite a full team of premiership starters no one gives a crap about under 21's. Many players have shined in those awful tournements and never shown the same ability in real competition. Other than that tourney Babel's shown no signs of being world class at all, the odd great game, out of 20 isn't good enough. Same goes for Walcott, even on a great game he flukes past players with lucky balls bouncing off legs and dropping in a nice place. I've almost never seen him dribble around a player without the defender getting a touch, mostly taking it off Walcott, rarely dropping nicely for Walcott, even then he's likely to blast it wide or cross behind the goal or hit the first defender in the box.
Nasri's been fairly good, and was good last year, had injuries last year remember. He scored on his first appearance, scored a brace against Chelsea IIRC, and then picked up a few injuries and was moved around in terms of position.
However we bought him the player he is today, likewise Eduardo was a great player when we bought him, he hasn't improved nor needed to at Arsenal. Barely had a run of games ever though. Vela also has never had a run of games which causes two issues, firstly you aren't match fit or confident and secondly if you are sure you'll get one chance then be dropped for 3 months you convince yourself if you get less than a hatrick you won't play again. So you get a over pressured player trying to force a good game which almost never works. Keep in mind the last time Vela got a hatrick, he was dropped for the next game.
EDIT:- THats what Fergie is doing well, even when they have awful performances Welbeck and Gibson know they'll get another chance, the pressure eases off and they have been improving. The more relaxed they become in the first team the better then end up playing which at least lets you see if they'll ever be good enough. They might not be, they might be crap, but at least they get the chance to give it their best.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Feb 2004
- Posts
- 9,492
I have missed your essays. Still dont understand how you write all that without coming to much of a conclusion though
All I can say is that our youngsters might not be performing to the high standards that the media set but I certainly wouldnt swap them for any of the other big fours youngsters in a million years.
PS By the way DM I loved that block your boy Eboue did the other week preventing a goal. Classic! I am so glad he never left in the summer
Soldato
Ooo, Liverpool and Arsenal should be a good game, my money would be on Liverpool to win...
I don't really know what to think of Babel. When he's good, he's very good, but when he's bad, it's as good as playing with 10.
As for his progress, I think it's a 50/50 situation. No doubt Babel can be very lazy but at the same time, Rafa doesn't seem to give anyone apart from his "core" players a decent run in the team.
I say give him half a dozen games back to back - some against big teams, some against lesser sides. If nothing comes of it, get rid.
As for his progress, I think it's a 50/50 situation. No doubt Babel can be very lazy but at the same time, Rafa doesn't seem to give anyone apart from his "core" players a decent run in the team.
I say give him half a dozen games back to back - some against big teams, some against lesser sides. If nothing comes of it, get rid.
I'll give you Agger but Torres was close to 3 years older than Babel when he signed and Reina was nearly 2 and half years older. And both of them already had enough talent before being signed. They've not changed under Benitez.
I agree that Benitez isn't the reason why Babel hasn't realised his potential. It's these crazy dutch players, most of them have stinking attitude problems, it must be in the water in Holland or something.
I fancy a fantastic 0-0 draw between Liverpool and Arsenal. Gerrard to be sent off for diving and Arsenal to hit the post multiple times.
Load of rubbish and you know it!
Reina is one of the best keepers in the world and most certainly wasn't before we signed him. In fact I doubt many people on here would have even heard of him before he joined us.
It's a similar situation with Torres too; he had been all hyped up when he broke on the scene at Atletico but never came close to living up to his promise, he's now one of the best players on the planet. Nobody can seriously say they've not progressed at Liverpool.
Regarding the age point; I was comparing them as they were all signed in the early 20's (only around 2 and a half years between them all) and at similar stages of their career progression; in other words a lot of unfulfilled potential.
Two and a half years is a big difference Baz.
In football terms it's pretty big. The reason why Torres is a bigger player now is because he plays for one of the biggest teams in England and plays in the Champions League, couple that with playing for arguably the best international team. He has progressed naturally, Benitez hasn't improved him in the last 2 years. If he had signed him as a teenager and then fast forward to now, you'd have actual reason to even suggest that. And never came close to living up to his promise? Come of it! He was playing for Atletico Madrid, what did you suddenly expect that team to be able to do, win La Liga?
And as for nobody knowing about Reina, yeah right, why would any of us have heard him or Villarreal...
People say that Song sometimes has sloppy passes which is a little harsh when Fabregas/Arshavin/RvP mess up many passes each game but never get criticised for it. That's probably because Song plays deeper and his mistakes are more likely to lead to immediate danger I suppose.
I didn't mean to imply he's worth £20m, he's not, I just meant that if Arsene was going to buy a player that's considerably better and worth buying, then he'd have to be looking at the very best, there's no point in replacing Song with somebody who's just a bit better. In Song I think he has a good DM who will possibly develop into that top bracket when he reaches that age where DM's start to shine (25ish), so buying somebody is complicated, he'd need to be very good for me to agree with the decision
Last edited:
Walcott is 21, Nasri is 22 and just came back from a broken leg and Vela is 20! Judging those a little early aren't you? Eduardo on the other hand is 26 so barely a youth player
Also, a little harshly, I think Nasri is brilliant and one of the most exciting young players in the league, Eduardo hasn't played more than a game or two in a row in nearly 2 years, seems almost that for Walcott too. Vela has been excellent for Mexico and has barely had a chance at Arsenal, he was brilliant last year though