The DC5 is less raw, and because of that, slightly less involving, than the DC2, however, it is more usable day to day because of it. It's swings and roundabouts as to which is better, and largely depends on exactly what you want from the car when you buy it.
Went in 1.8 Integra type R ...
- Thread starter salami1212
- Start date
The DC5 is less raw, and because of that, slightly less involving, than the DC2, however, it is more usable day to day because of it. It's swings and roundabouts as to which is better, and largely depends on exactly what you want from the car when you buy it.
Still not that quite in a straight line...
Give me some examples of upgrades please and what sort of power is possible
there are Na tuned cars in Japan making nearly 300bhp, but the easiest example has to be the ariel atom, supercharger = easy 300bhp.
Supercharger
So not the cheapest car to upgrade!
No, they are already putting out over 100bhp per litre NA, no car that does that is cheap to tune, because it's pretty impressive to start with.
You can get more power out of them, but it's not cheap, certainly not compared with a turbocharged car or a car with a much less well optimised setup to start with.
ok well maybe that isnt the correct definition of a powerband, what is it to you?
The powerband is the longest period of the highest torque (within a reasonable tolerance), usually found on a rolling road or similar. Cars with short powerbands are often described as peaky, but generally, you can either have a long powerband at the expense of peak power and torque figures, or a short powerband with higher peaks. With most engines, you have to compromise, because cam profiles that are good for low speed torque are bad for high speed torque and vice versa, which makes getting a good long powerband very difficult. VTEC (and similar systems like Vanos and VVTiL) change this, by having different cam profiles for high and low revs, and switching between the two at an appropriate point. F1 engines take this a step further by using pneumatic valves with no cam shafts to enable the valve timing and lift to be fully varied at every point in the rev range.
A higher torque, lower reving engine without the cam shifting technology cannot emulate the power delivery of a VTEC engine, and that power delivery is one of the key features in the way the car drives. It's not something that could be negated by gearing changes, because lengthening the gearing to counter for a shorter powerband actually makes the problem of driving it well worse. (See a BMW 535d vs 535i on the topgear test track video for an example)
remember i did say "larger" engine, if it pulled nicely to its redline, the extra torque was enough to counter the longer gears needed to acheive similar gear speeds, in the end it would be very similar in everything but noise, which was really my point.
Last edited:
But it wouldn't, because without VTEC, which was one of your criteria, it would either have (a) a short rev range to give power throughout, meaning a shorter powerband, (b) a larger rev range, but would not pull as well at high revs, meaning a shorter powerband, or (c) a larger rev range, but would not pull as well at low revs, meaning a shorter powerband.
All of these are issues that can't be resolved solely by gearing, not on a track where appropriate gear selection to get you into the power band is paramount.
If my budget hadnt got me an EP3, id have definately bought a DC2... great car, i love the Vtec power delivery, not the most poweful thing car on the road, but such a nice car to drive.
As for the passenger ride being unimpressive, Dup taking me for a blast in his EP3 at the MM earlier this year, was my sole reason for test driving them, ive been taken for rides in quite a few nice cars, but none have "felt" as nippy as Dups EP3, its the way the thing revs and grips, rather than actual speed probably.
As for the passenger ride being unimpressive, Dup taking me for a blast in his EP3 at the MM earlier this year, was my sole reason for test driving them, ive been taken for rides in quite a few nice cars, but none have "felt" as nippy as Dups EP3, its the way the thing revs and grips, rather than actual speed probably.
i dont get that bit, i dont see the two as connected, if you have 10% less rev range, but have 10% more power(through displacement) you can run 10% longer gearing to acheive the same power at the wheels with the same gear speeds no?
I think many would choose a DC2 even with an EP3 budget. DC2 is in a different league in terms of handling.
There's no doubting the EP3 is a better everyday car, though.
I'm not talking just about speed and acceleration, that might be where we're diverging. I'm talking about fast road/track driving where you end up doing a lot of gear shifting to keep the car in the appropriate place in the power band.
You could make the car accelerate the same, but you couldn't make it flow when being driven hard the same, and it is that flow that the Integra is famous for. The wide powerband and close, short gearing is a big part of that flow, and by changing that, you'd damage the real thing that the car is famous for. With a narrow powerband, you need a much larger selection of gear ratios to enable you to hit the powerband appropriately, or alternatively you have to drive the car back into the powerband which isn't as quick and smooth.
As I said, if you get an opportunity, take equivilent petrol and diesel models for a proper, twisty fast road thrash, and the differences really become apparent quickly.
Not all agree with that mate.
Source: Evo, Sept 06, Shootout - best FWD car ever.
Quote1 - "You cannot powerslide a FWD car (although the current DC5 almost makes you think you can, such are the extraordinary antics of its LSD)"
Quote2 - "But is it best to try and hide a cars innate FWD-ness or let it shout as an art form in itself? I come back to the current Integra Type R, next to which the DC2 is a model of civility. The current one is raw, with massively corrupted steering and a sledgehammer LSD which make it keep turning. It's FWD and proud of it! "
Last edited:
but i dont mean different spacing i mean a longer final drive, gear spacing can still be the same.
ok i should clarify really what i was meaning.
To give an example i have a non vtec 2 litre that makes 197bhp@7000rpm, it makes about 12% more torque at any point in its rev range than a b18c6, it has about 12% longer final drive but similar gear spacing to an integra, it also has a rev limit about 12% lower than an integra, but the powerband, when looked at as a percentage of the overall rev range, is the same as an integra's and shares its eagerness to meet the redline.
Everything ends up fairly balanced with similar wheel power for any given speed and the result is round combe, along side various integra's it was virtually identical in performance, and i was shifting the same gears at the same points, i've driven a dc2 in anger albeit briefly but i've spent plenty time as a passenger in one and if i couldnt hear the engine i wouldnt be able to tell one had vtec and one didnt, all i'm saying is there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to this and its the chassis and not the engine that makes the dc2, although the noise is possibly a reason to justify using a smaller engine with vtec
, although in saying that its not vtec which dictates how high an engine revs.I've driven plenty diesels in anger and thats not a great comparison at all, as i said i doubt they would put one in a dc2 as an alternative to a vtec somehow, i was thinking more along the lines of a slightly larger petrol engine.
Last edited:
Just as the original started to die off, the demotivation style just brings it right back againlaughing loads at that, because it says it twice
