Westfields... any experts?

[rscosworth]

Bought one last year and kept it for 6months, was a highly tuned vauxhall xe redtop tuned by SBD and running around 220bhp.

It had no weather gear and was absolute murder, found it even more hassle than going out on the bike (which is why i bought it cos i thought it would be easier) and ended up flogging it.

Im glad i got it and tried it, but never again......

 

[Reality Bites]

To answer the couple of questions above

The crossflow was fine it was supposedly 130bhp but I measured it on the dyno at work and it wasnt near that by a long way.
The thing to remember with these cars is that they weigh bugger all so power to weight ratio's really count.
I did find on trackdays if I was out with other 7 style cars I was down on power but then I usually surprised the "normal" cars.

To change from a crossflow or a pintosaurus you will be looking at about £1500+ to do it so unless you get the new engine very cheaply its a costly swop.As it will probably need a water rail(Duratec,Zetec) bigger carbs,new exhaust etc.Its the small stuff that all adds up so consider putting the cash you would spend into a car with the engine you want.

Insurance was dead cheap for me but then I am an old fart,again bear in mind if it is Q plated they class it as a classic car so limited mileage policies will apply.

Oh about weather gear,its ok although its a pain to get in the car with it on and it does let water in.Driving in the rain without a hood is possible but you get water on the inside of the screen.The new car is only having an aeroscreen so that wont be an issue.Best option is some waterproofs from a bike shop.You also really need a heater if you drive in the rain with weather gear as it mists up badly.Although they add weight so I didnt have one.

thanks for that, very helpful.

I was tempted to look around at specs which were closer to what i wanted, but this one is a bit or a bargain. I could budget spending around £3k making it how i wanted.

 

[Steve JL]

thanks for that, very helpful.

I was tempted to look around at specs which were closer to what i wanted, but this one is a bit or a bargain. I could budget spending around £3k making it how i wanted.

Trust me you will

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Anyway, in conclusion, pintos suck

I disagree.

And it costs pennies to get decent power from a Pinto. I do agree they are heavier but it's only 20kg - difference of half a tank of fuel.

If you build a Westfield from a donor Sierra, use the Pinto. if you build it in modular kit form, don't use a Zetec, use a Duratec.

Plenty of Pinto powered Westies running in the top slots of the Speed Series.

 

[olv]

It still weighs more than Jupiter and is harder to extract power from than the more modern 2.0 litre units.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

It still weighs more than Jupiter and is harder to extract power from than the more modern 2.0 litre units.

How many Pintos or Zetecs have you built or is this all knowledge gained from reading magazine and internet articles?

You'll be telling me the new Volvo/Ford 2.5t engines are more tunable than a YB cosworth next.

Just because it is newer doesn't mean it's better. Remember, most of the modern 16v engines were developed for emissions and fuel economy NOT power.

 

[olv]

And the pinto was developed as an uber power house racing engine?

The fact is that the newer engines are lighter and easier to extract more power from. I can understand the reasoning behind using a pinto i.e. it comes with the donor, but aside from that I see no benefit to using it. And no, I dont have practical experience of building the engines but did research the subject in depth when I was planning to build a locost a few years ago.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

And the pinto was developed as an uber power house racing engine?

And the Zetec was?

Sorry, you can read about it as much as you like in magazines and websites but practical experience begs to differ. Vulcan, Burton Power, JMC etc still love the Pinto. Many will debate over the fact that "the Zetec is a better engine". The Duratec engine is another story though and will be the engine that replaces the Pinto when the prices come down.

There is so much snobbery in the kit car market - that's where the Zetec myth comes from. Bearing in mind it takes a fair amount of money to get the Zetec into a rear wheel drive kit car - relocating the water rail, new gearbox bellhousing, spigot bearing, modifying the sump to prevent oil starvation(sump faces the wrong way for the baffles to work etc).

Now, I really hate saying this as it's comes across as willy waving but we've built 4 Pinto engines and 3 Zetecs and we've always had better results per £ spent on the Pinto than we have on the Zetecs. Plus the Pintos always felt more tractable - torque curves were much smoother. And we're not talking 150bhp units here - both types of engines were coming out with 180ish.

The one Duratec we built made 250 bhp however and that was easy but about double the £/bhp of the other two engines.

 

[olv]

well obviously your experience trumps. And i wasn't talking just about the zetec but the Vauxhall XE lump aswell. it was just the impression I got over at locostbuilders forum that it was easier and cheaper to get towards 200bhp from the 16v engines. But as i say, I never did undergo building one.

 

[Wicksta]

My 1.8 Zetec with 50k miles cost £80 with all ancilleries, to get similar power from a pinto or to buy a duratec would put a much bigger dent in my wallet I reckon!

OT: I picked up some almost new 15 inch wheels with brand new Toyo Proxes for £180 on the bay, which I think will do for now:

Starting to get excited now its looking like a car.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Vauxhall XE lump

Ah, a nice engine - much better than a Zetec. Plenty cheap too.

My 1.8 Zetec with 50k miles cost £80 with all ancilleries

So that includes the new flywheel, clutch, relocated water rail, spigot bearing and modified sump? All of which you'd need to fit it into a RWD car. None of which you need to touch on a Pinto.

to get similar power from a pinto

Eh? They both have the same power - 115bhp. Or did you happen to find a 1.8 with the 130ps cams in it?

EDIT: Forgot to say - car looks nice and the wheels suit it. What make/model is it? I'd guess a Tiger Avon?

 

[Wicksta]

So that includes the new flywheel, clutch, relocated water rail, spigot bearing and modified sump? All of which you'd need to fit it into a RWD car. None of which you need to touch on a Pinto.

I'm pretty sure the sump, spigot bearing and water rail don't need to be relocated/installed on a 1.8 Zetec (only a 2.0 one) - that was one of the reasons I went for it. I'll find out for definite and let you know. Or if you have a link saying otherwise that would be great! As it's from an escort I don't have to worry about the waterpump going backwards.

Eh? They both have the same power - 115bhp. Or did you happen to find a 1.8 with the 130ps cams in it?

I thought the 2.0 pinto was about 90-100bhp but it seems injection models have more. What is the torque curve and weight like compared to a Zetec? I did think about putting the 2.0 cams in for 130bhp but I think at the moment I'll just run it with the stock 115bhp.

EDIT: Forgot to say - car looks nice and the wheels suit it. What make/model is it? I'd guess a Tiger Avon?

Cheers - its a Stuart Taylor (Aries Motorsport) Locost - http://www.ariesmotorsport.co.uk has all the details. Probably owes me about £2500-£3000 at the moment, still need to get interior, gearbox and a few other bits.

 

[Snaggle]

You can defend the pinto as long as u want ...its a boat anchor ..

For the money pound for pound the zetec is a better engine than pinto . Now im just comparing the 2 and not including xe/duratec/k series but if it was between a pinto and zetec its the obvious choice .

And yer looking more like 90hp for a pinto compared to 115 for the zetec .
And with a quick change of cams from the 2.0 you have 130ish for pennies .

My 1.8 zetec was running at 169bhp with stage 2 head /cams/tb's and was quick enough but you soon get used to the power... I peronally think you need over 200 to keep it interesting and agree what rscosworth said that it was more aggro than owning a bike .

Persil

 

[Deleted member 66701]

And yer looking more like 90hp for a pinto compared to 115 for the zetec .

Absolute rubbish.

The standard 2 litre was rated at 105 bhp (more like 100 bhp in reality) in carb form and 115 bhp with injection.

http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/PINTO.htm

So, same as a 1.8 Zetec.

Engine an box for a Pinto is 135kg, same for a Zetec is 105kg - I'd hardly call 20kg anything worth worrying about.

http://www.kitcar-trader.co.uk/weights_detail.php?id=468
http://www.kitcar-trader.co.uk/weights_detail.php?id=6

 

[Alibaba99]

I'd recommend either a Rover K series VVC or a Honda K20A.

The Rover K is good because its light and powerful, in fact its power to weight is still unmatched. They are also cheap to buy and maintain. So cheap in fact that if you get a bad one you can just buy another and still be quids in compared to something like a K20A.

The Honda K20A will cost more from scrapyard ("cuz it from a Type R innit..") but there'll be hardly anything on the road that can touch you.

The new Ford Sigma 1.6 (as used in the latest Caterhams) is 10kg lighter than the K.

Insurance is interesting. Yes quotes are cheap (and you don't have to be ancient to get them) but in many cases they are 2nd car insurance. You must have a primary car insured for regular use.

Best advice when looking at a Westfield is to look at as many as possible so that you start to get a feel for how they are built (and the differences between different cars) and how they perform. Even and under performing car will still feel quick compared to many vehicles.

 

[NathanE]

Interesting... do they do the Ford Sigma in 1.8L though?

 

[Skeeter]

How many of you people going on about boat anchors and ZetecDuratecXSeriesXELumpTasticnessOHoy have actually driven a kit car, or better still, driven more than one to provide a comparison. I have no experience of any, but I do understand physics. No engine with 100+BHP in a car that weighs 500KG will be considered 'slow'.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

How many of you people going on about boat anchors and ZetecDuratecXSeriesXELumpTasticnessOHoy have actually driven a kit car, or better still, driven more than one to provide a comparison.

Er, me? Driven around 15 now with various engines and still building one with a Pinto - now that either says it's not as bad as people say or that I'm stupid. Then again, I am building to a budget so that narrows down the choices.

I have no experience of any, but I do understand physics. No engine with 100+BHP in a car that weighs 500KG will be considered 'slow'.

There is an argument that an engine that is 20 kg lighter will make more of a difference in a 500kg kit car than a 1500 kg saloon. Then again, you'll probably not be able to "feel" that difference - you'd have to resort to pub anorak speeches about power-to-weight ratios, 1/4 times etc. You'd have to quote your "reasearch" done by reading 2nd hand reports on the internet or "expert" magazine articles to prove your point.

Are you really going to lose sleep over only doing 0-60 in 4.6s with a Pinto rather than 4.4s with a Zetec? Or are you going to go home crying that you only crossed the line on the 1/4 mile @ 105mph rather than 108mph?

My father in laws 1.6cvh engine narrow bodied Westfield is a flier and we rolling roaded that at 135bhp.

ANY Westfield with ANY engine will put a silly grin on your face and will be a licence losing car (or worse) if you're not careful.

For the record, Westfield now do a Single Donor Vehicle kit that you can use a 1.6 or 1.8 Mazda MX5 for (as Sierras are becoming remarkable hard to find now) as they are rear wheel drive. Those 1.6 and 1.8 16v engines suit the Westfield chassis really well.

http://www.westfield-sportscars.co.uk/donorkit.html

 

[Snaggle]

Trouble is a lot of kits are not that close to 500kg ... Although most people will insist they are hehehe .

And 100hp may seem fast for the first few days but it really dont take long to get used to it ...Hence why if you read a lot of the kit car forums everyone is on a constant project to lose weight and add power . Hence my comment that you need 200+ bhp to keep it fresh .

Kinda why i went Bike - westfield - Bike as you cant beat the thrill of a big bike
.

Persil

 

[m_cozzy]

In answer to some of the comments above:-
I have owned a 95 westfield with a vx 2.0 engine (155 @ the wheels)for over 2 years now, it was my everyday car for 1 year & the wet weather gear is fine for the odd shower, leaked like a sieve during a downpour though
Insurance for me at 37 now is £165/year fully comp with adrian flux or footman james.
Its an absolute hoot to drive, massive grin each time I drive it.
The only thing that has failed is the isolator packed up, lucky I was at home at the time.
I too would not want a pinto engine, or an xflow come to that, they just seem like such old tech to me. Still with these powerplants they can be good cheap entry level cars & will still be fantastic fun coming from an ordinary car.