What desktop speakers are you using?

The talk about not always requiring a sub, that is 100% correct.

What people don't realise is the low frequency output is effected by the mains quality! The AC output is a sign wave, but the tops of the sign wave can sometimes be cut off, this restricts the amplifier. It's the same if you boil a kettle at 8am in the morning, it takes longer to boil as everyone is making tea at that point. It's also why your Hi Fi can sound better at say 1 am in the morning, as the mains is better at that time.

So if you want even more bass from your amp & speakers, you use some form of mains conditioning, it depends on the condition of your mains, however could be surprised how tighter the sound becomes.
 
The talk about not always requiring a sub, that is 100% correct.

What people don't realise is the low frequency output is effected by the mains quality! The AC output is a sign wave, but the tops of the sign wave can sometimes be cut off, this restricts the amplifier. It's the same if you boil a kettle at 8am in the morning, it takes longer to boil as everyone is making tea at that point. It's also why your Hi Fi can sound better at say 1 am in the morning, as the mains is better at that time.

So if you want even more bass from your amp & speakers, you use some form of mains conditioning, it depends on the condition of your mains, however could be surprised how tighter the sound becomes.
LOL... spat my coffee out..

It might only have been topped had you said that due to the AC being ~50Hz, there is no point expecting a Sub to output much below this..

On the subject of it a sub is required.. it's entirely down to the individual, I absolutely love having a sub, part of my enjoyment of listening to music is the all in the bass and sub-bass and how that contributes to the music. I'm just listening to London Grammars 'Hey Now' and the bass rift and low end is really well engineered with the deep female vocals.. Heavenly.

I fell for the "You don't need a sub" when I was flogged a full B&W Setup with front floor standers (DM604s) for a home cinema setup.. It was so hollow without a sub for my personal preference and within 2 weeks ran out and chucked in a Mission M5AS to the setup and never looked back.

Even now, rather than buy larger (and less desk friendly) speakers, I tend to buy the smaller versions and augment with a sub, the BK Gemini II is perfect under my desk and thats just for near field music listening.

Each to their own, I know loads of people happy without a sub, my only advice is to understand your own preferences and don't listen to anyone telling you a sub isn't needed unless you've figured out if its important to you.. I can turn off the sub and its still enjoyable, but it's night and day improved with it on.
 
The BK Gemini II is around £200 it seems, that's much more digestible than the £1000 I was seeing for a Kef sub etc :p

Hey Now is certainly a brilliant song for bass, I have it saved in my audio demo playlist on Spotify and on the Q300s it has a consistent smooth flow of the low level bass that runs through the whole track and you can "feel" that bassline without any muddying of the vocals which is a great experience. I fully expect a sub to add further extension but in my sort of use case and configuration, it's good enough that I have not felt that any bass extension is being missed to not get fully immersed in tracks like that really!

I suspect the Q300s are shining so well in part due to the NAD amp having excellent dynamics and power. The pairing just seems to be matched to both their positive qualities and that a,amplifies those. It's 200wpc on demand which might be one bearing factor why the bass is so well defined.
 
LOL... spat my coffee out..

Nothing to lol about, mains quality effects how well the amplifier works.

If you want an example, play the stereo in your car very loud with the engine off, and you will see the dash lights dipping with the high energy low frequencies, this is presuming it's an older car that's pre-led lights.

It's also the reason why you should ideally plug HiFi components directly to wall sockets, as running lots of components of say a single extension cable creates mains resistance. If not everything to wall, at least use separate extensions for source and amplifier components.
 
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That's not a very good example. A car battery vs mains electricity.... The dash lights will briefly fade just turning on the interior lights in many cars for example. Just the way it is.
 
It's also the reason why you should ideally plug HiFi components directly to wall sockets, as running lots of components of say a single extension cable creates mains resistance.

It's true that your house burning down would have an adverse impact on the sound quality from the hifi, so I agree it's a good idea to ensure that you aren't overloading any multi-ways you are using.

Did you know that plugging kettles, toasters and coffee machines directly into wall sockets is also important to sound quality? Your hifi will continue to work, having not melted in a house fire, if you also don't plug other high-power devices into inadequate multi-way power adapters!

Back on topic.

I'm using a pair of ancient Warfdale Diamond IV's through a Denon PMA-50. I was going to replace them with something better, but they just keep on working and I mostly listen through headphones on my PC anyway.
 
The BK Gemini II is around £200 it seems, that's much more digestible than the £1000 I was seeing for a Kef sub etc :p

Hey Now is certainly a brilliant song for bass, I have it saved in my audio demo playlist on Spotify and on the Q300s it has a consistent smooth flow of the low level bass that runs through the whole track and you can "feel" that bassline without any muddying of the vocals which is a great experience. I fully expect a sub to add further extension but in my sort of use case and configuration, it's good enough that I have not felt that any bass extension is being missed to not get fully immersed in tracks like that really!

I suspect the Q300s are shining so well in part due to the NAD amp having excellent dynamics and power. The pairing just seems to be matched to both their positive qualities and that a,amplifies those. It's 200wpc on demand which might be one bearing factor why the bass is so well defined.

I changed my mind. I demand you purchase R300s ASAP and plonk them in your setup immediately. :mad:

As for the whole stuff about the mains... lmao. Every competent device 'conditions' the signal on its own by design.
 
If I got the R300s for over a grand, I may as well plump up a few more and get the R3 - I think that will be what I get. Just need to save a tad more dosh now haha. They are 8 ohms so decent to drive and the NAD is:
8 Ohms : 80W
4 Ohms : 150W
2 Ohms : 200W

Should be ample :D
 
Won't be any time soon of course, I just ordered a new watch recently so disposable funds need to replenish :D
 
Nothing to lol about, mains quality effects how well the amplifier works.

If you want an example, play the stereo in your car very loud with the engine off, and you will see the dash lights dipping with the high energy low frequencies, this is presuming it's an older car that's pre-led lights.

It's also the reason why you should ideally plug HiFi components directly to wall sockets, as running lots of components of say a single extension cable creates mains resistance. If not everything to wall, at least use separate extensions for source and amplifier components.
You are conflating so many things here.

You are giving an example of an old car with a poorly spec'd alternator and electrical system that can't supply the load for the car with a high power amp and headlights on.. i.e. the Current the Alternator can produce is far less than the headlights and amplifier require, not to mention the possibility of underspec'd cable that has high losses and hence some voltage droop is expected.

An amplifier in your home is a very different proposition. your house will be fused for 80A or 100A (possibly 60A if looped with your neighbour), your ring main is quite well spec'd (normally 32A), An amplifier, say a Marantz PM6006 draws around 155W @ 240v.. I=P/V = 155/240 = 0.65A.
0.65A is such a tiny load, that even if we assume could well exceed this when it's driving a low frequency note, is still so far under your homes electrical system design it's not remotely in the same league as some old car.. You could plug several extension leads together with most amplifiers and still no where near enough current to even get close to worrying about voltage droop..

Then there is the 'The AC output is a sign wave, but the tops of the sign wave can sometimes be cut off' - Whilst this is possible, the AC-DC conversion and DC rail generation design within any modern and well designed device should easily be able to handle any normal noise/artefacts on the AC, these will be filtered out well before they get anywhere near the rails the audio amplifier circuits will be driven from.

And that's the crux, you are projecting this simple (but not unplausible) effect of voltage droop and noisy mains as if it directly couples right through the device to your speakers.. This should not occur unless you buy some really badly designed bit of guff..

A long time ago you may have had a point, or if we are talking about really cheap and not very hi-fi amplifiers, then sure.. but c'mon, anything moderately well known/decent you don't need to go mad moly coddling.

I've worked with people who design audio amps for Sony as well as some more high end valve amplifiers, this subject has been discussed many times and part of the reason I'm confident in what I say is simply that my day job involves working a talented bunch of engineers that make all manner of medical devices, some having to squeeze every watt out a wall socket anywhere in the world, some measuring signals down to pico-volts.. The biggest design headache is not the AC supply at all, it's just the normal internal DC rail generation, getting that spec'd correctly for the load and noise generated internally is where we spend most of the design effort, the actual AC-DC conversion with modern power supplies gets rid of anything you are ever likely to see within your home.


I am a bit of a basshead so a sub is more of a priority, but interestingly, songs like 'Hey Now' do have this amazingly layered/detailed bass, it's such a brilliantly engineered song and whilst the desktop speakers give a good sense of the bass, it's on a whole new level with the sub. Mind you, since I am 'near field' this is a different proposition to a larger room in a normal listening position, a sub will still add a bit of a new dimension but you need something much larger/more capable IMO.
 
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Yeah getting the wrong sub is always a concern too as a sub needs to be matched to the environment, not just the speakers and amp too. And then you have the configuration side of things once you find a suitable sub, when does the range cut in and for what is that best set up for, movies? games? music? My amp also has a HP cutoff range of frequencies (120Hz, 80 and 40) so then there's that to faff about with too.

It probably is worth the effort but ehh, I keep going back to the Q300s doing things so well as it is lol.

Oh forgot to mention that I'd then also need to make extra space under the desk for the amp, I like a bit of stretch leg room under there, and then another plug being used leaving basically just one free socket from a 12-gang outlet rail!

Maybe one day, but for a while yet, the extra faff just isn't me :p
 
LOL... spat my coffee out..

It might only have been topped had you said that due to the AC being ~50Hz, there is no point expecting a Sub to output much below this..

On the subject of it a sub is required.. it's entirely down to the individual, I absolutely love having a sub, part of my enjoyment of listening to music is the all in the bass and sub-bass and how that contributes to the music. I'm just listening to London Grammars 'Hey Now' and the bass rift and low end is really well engineered with the deep female vocals.. Heavenly.

I fell for the "You don't need a sub" when I was flogged a full B&W Setup with front floor standers (DM604s) for a home cinema setup.. It was so hollow without a sub for my personal preference and within 2 weeks ran out and chucked in a Mission M5AS to the setup and never looked back.

Even now, rather than buy larger (and less desk friendly) speakers, I tend to buy the smaller versions and augment with a sub, the BK Gemini II is perfect under my desk and thats just for near field music listening.

Each to their own, I know loads of people happy without a sub, my only advice is to understand your own preferences and don't listen to anyone telling you a sub isn't needed unless you've figured out if its important to you.. I can turn off the sub and its still enjoyable, but it's night and day improved with it on.
Forgot to say as remembered whilst listening to the song in the car, but Tainted Love by Stella Starlight Trio is also an excellent song for a constant low level bassline that is just outstanding :cool:
 
Guys I may have found the speaker I've been looking for! I have no idea how they rate against the KEF R3, but they are also a 3-way with coaxial mid/tweeter config and front firing ports so ideal for near a wall as in my desk setup. Priced very very well vs the 4 figures of the R3.



"Reminded me of another reference speaker, the KEF R3" :eek:

£600: https://premiumsound.co.uk/product/speakers/bookshelf/elac-uni-fi-2-0-ub52/

Before I order, can anyone spot anything that might cause me any issue vs my Q300?

Cheers!

Edit*
They also have a Reference series of the Uni-Fi for not too much more: https://premiumsound.co.uk/product/speakers/bookshelf/elac-uni-fi-reference-ubr62/ That one has a bigger woofer so would be more suited to bigger bass.
 
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I've had Elac on my list for a while, I just wanted to demo a pair, the Andrew Jones designed stuff always seems to get a lot of praise..

The main thing is they simply don't fit on my desk! Otherwise I'd have had a pair by now!
 
That's where speaker stands comes into play! My Q300s would never fit on the desk lol without massively sacrificing desk space and having no room for anything else - But with stands, even cheap ones like I got, it';s a game changer :cool:

I just searched emails etc to find what model they are but can't find anything, it's been so long since I bought them it might actually have been direct from Richer Sounds when I was in there buying the Q300s back around 2014 time.

desktop_2022.03.14.jpg
 
But with stands, even cheap ones like I got, it';s a game changer :cool:

Stands are absolutely critical to setting up the sound. You should possibly look into isolation foam to sit under your speakers for even more sound improvement. Also you have chosen front ported speakers that's correct when your close to a wall.
 
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Guys I may have found the speaker I've been looking for! I have no idea how they rate against the KEF R3, but they are also a 3-way with coaxial mid/tweeter config and front firing ports so ideal for near a wall as in my desk setup. Priced very very well vs the 4 figures of the R3.



"Reminded me of another reference speaker, the KEF R3" :eek:

£600: https://premiumsound.co.uk/product/speakers/bookshelf/elac-uni-fi-2-0-ub52/

Before I order, can anyone spot anything that might cause me any issue vs my Q300?

Cheers!

Edit*
They also have a Reference series of the Uni-Fi for not too much more: https://premiumsound.co.uk/product/speakers/bookshelf/elac-uni-fi-reference-ubr62/ That one has a bigger woofer so would be more suited to bigger bass.

You overstate the importance of port placement on a speaker. Bass is omnidirectional, look at Genelec's setup guides - rear ports need about 5cm minimum from the wall to work correctly. The rest of it is up to your room.

You have more than enough rear space on those stands. The port placement won't help any issues you may have with bass.

Once again, the importance of port placement is a myth that refuses to die.
 
A lot of manufacturers with rear firing ports state in their manuals to be at least a certain distance from the wall to avoid boomy bass, 20cm being typical though hence why I've generally avoided rear ported speakers as had them in the past. I know speakers like the R300/R3 are an exception as one of their uses is nearfield use at like a desktop but most aren't.

Plus even 5cm is too far frrom the wall for my use case, for example the Q300 sized speakers, if they were 5cm from the wall then they'they would be too far forward placed for my liking in relation to being in the same plane as the monitor screen.
 
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