I think Nvidia is deliberately holding back performance on the 60 class and has been for a few generations now as people who buy these generally want to keep their cards for longer and that doesn’t match Nvidia’s ideals, this gen though we’ve now seen this also creep into the 70 class.
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What do gamers actually think about Ray-Tracing?
- Thread starter Purgatory
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Associate
Can someone tell me where I can find these RT/PT geometry, models and textures please? I think i've been designing my games wrong for all these years.
Associate
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The thing is, most people don't care, and also nor should they. What matters to most is whether it looks better, and whether performance means that is accessible. There are good examples of RT, there are bad examples of RT, but whether it makes a developer's job easier is irrelevant to me. If it allows a developer to make better looking games more easily, that's great...for the developer..
Saying you just don't know what you're looking at is pretty elitist.
Metro EE is not a new game, though. New games with RT work WAY worse. And there 2060 is just not good enough. Neither is 4060, though.
As far as I know, Lumen doesn't remove raster, it adds things on top of it. Both the SW and HW version of it.
On RT being as widespread as you seem to be claiming it is - it's nowhere near that, as far as I can see, but if one listen to NVIDIA it could sound like it's everywhere and one can't live without it. Define "all industries". Almost all industries seem to be all over AI, but RT? I highly doubt it. Film industry sure, that's what NVIDIA aimed that tech at initially, after all. Also, define "RT treatment" - do you mean by it that they bolt on top of raster game optional RT effects, which majority of gamers do not even turn on (as per HU and other sites surveys)?
Do you even realise how many games come out every month? Just on Steam, for example? Simple search in Google shows about 10k a year - yes, 10 thousand games per year, on Steam alone. Now compare that to NVIDIA's list and see how many out of these have RT. It's a miniscule number, a drop in the ocean. AAA titles are not all there is to gaming and even these often still do not have any RT in them. Me saying 95% might be actually very generous, as it's likely way less than 1% of modern games that have RT in them on release.
It really isn't. Unless you limit yourself only to the most advertised, biggest AAA titles. Which is still just a handful of games per year, comparing to about 10k being released yearly on Steam alone.
In many cases it really is a gimmick, because it's not well implemented, it's literally just bolted on top of raster game, to tick a box in marketing. Done. Looks and works bad, but who cares - box ticked. I doubt this is the standard of RT you want to see in games, is it?
Fair enough, in this case I was more pointing at the fact that full RT games (with no option to turn it off) are a rarity and I doubt they would sell well, considering what hardware majority of gamers have currently. Avatar being big and known brand that might've played more into sales numbers even though most people who bought that game can't run it well on their hardware.
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True, you shouldn't care how things are done and more so just the end result i.e. frame gen and upscaling for example, depsite being "fake", end result is a smoother and more performant outcome which either looks just as good or better than the traditional method of rendering frames.
Given I work in development so have a pretty good insight/understanding to the overall concept of why things are done and the processes, it's just tiring to see outright ignorance to what the advantages are even when you have developers themselves stating exactly the pros of said things and showcasing how it benefits them and in return how it will benefit gamers so I'm not just looking at this from a gamer POV.
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And that's perfectly fair - it can run on a bag of rocks if it works as far as I'm concerned. Upscaling I am fine with as it improves performance for very little discernible (to me) issues. Not tried frame generation so can't comment, but as long as latency isn't an issue that's all good. RT is just a huge performance cost (currently) for limited image improvement. Great for still shots, but in movement I would rather have the FPS, and I'm running a fairly decent GPU.
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And yet, I am quite sure that if that same game had no RT in it at all, your enjoyment and fun wouldn't change. Which swings right back to why most people seem to not care for RT. Sure it's more pretty (all the devs and easy development aside) and more realistic, but unless you really go for as realistic looking game as possible, it changed absolutely nothing in the gameplay itself and adds nothing to the fun. And that's how most people seem to feel (including me), aside mentioned above special cases of super realistic looking games. That said, I shall underline it again in here - I am all for proper RT, but together with mainstream hardware that can run it like it can run raster currently. That means faster but also cheaper. Till that happens it might as well not exist for most people.
The difference is that HDR cost no performance at all and is very easy to see in all games and movies where it's implemented well. But then we hit same wall as with RT - cost barrier with good monitors that can run HDR properly. And even though it's been on the market longer than RT and a lot of games do have it, most people never turn it on still and have never even seen proper HDR on proper monitor. Which is sad, as it often adds more to the game's looks than RT, I'd say.
I disagree about FG. I like the tech, but it works fine in slower games but when games are fast and you combine it with RT and other tech, expecting high FPS, you get definitely worse experience. Which I know first hand playing CP2077 with DLSS and FG and PT as melee spec, having to stop playing now and then as it's just getting unpleasant quickly in fast action because of the added latency. And that's on 4090.
In the end, games will still get more expensive over time and the only side it will (at least financially) benefit are publishers who will cash the difference. It's always been the case and always will be.
It doesn't matter if it is a new game, it's a showcase as to what is really capable when RT is done right from the get go, 4a enhanced stated this themselves, obviously was initiated by nvidia but it also ran great on amd too including the consoles.
IN-DEPTH TECHNICAL DIVE INTO METRO EXODUS PC ENHANCED EDITION — 4A Games
OUT NOW! We’re happy to let you know that the Metro Exodus PC Enhanced Edition is now released, bringing on board incredible improvements for Ray Tracing-capable GPUs, including Field of View options, DLSS 2.0, and much more. It is also a free entitlement to current owners – as it is so extensive
www.4a-games.com.mt
You could say it was more so a POC i.e. proof of concept to showcase what's possible.
What about spiderman 2 and avatar? They're new games where there is no way to disable RT.
Lumen is still using RT though isn't it?
I said this from the day RT came about, people seem to think developers can just wait till the hardware gets there then once that happens, it will just be a flick of a switch and there we go, in the RT era, this is not how migration to new workflows/tech works, it is a slow gradual switchover and eventually things get phased out. IIRC, Phil Spencer stated something similar with xbox and the engineers their trying to get to grips with ray tracing, the way all companies are going about it now is a way for them to work out what works, what doesn't, get familiar with a new skillset (if you have a look at job listings for likes of nvidia, amd, game development companies, they actually list jobs specifically tailored to RT), improve for the next time, there is no ideal or better way to move into newer technology.
Well for starters, of the top of my head for ray tracing adoption over the past 3 years:
- all major chipset manufacturers supporting RT hardware i.e. exynos, qualcomm, apple to then phone manufacturers supporting RT i.e. samsung, apple, huawei etc.
- movie/tv show industry although ray tracing has been used here for a long time before gaming (and long before nvidia were interested in RT but I could be wrong on that, perhaps nvidia were involved?) so nothing new but it became a bit more common lately e.g. most pixar films, tv shows like game of thrones, mandalorian
- rendering applications for architects - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsI5dbz-T8Y
Like I said, if you look at all the smaller/indie titles then of course (where anyone can upload literally anything to steam), you're looking at a certain section of games and ignoring the ones that most people play(ed). It's like people who refer to steams most played games to say "RT isn't used" even though the most played games in steam came out before RT was a thing.....
I could for example take your stance and disregard the games you play and go here's the only games I have played over the past 2 years and say, RT in all the games:
This was a post in another thread in terms of just the demanding ones so not even factoring in the ones that run well e.g. riftbreaker kind of RT titles.
It's disingenuous to insinuate that RT is not becoming more integrated/common in the more sought after titles as time goes on unless you are only looking at steam indie titles that most people wouldn't have heard of....
I don't disagree there are plenty of titles with pointless RT e.g. fc 6, halo infinite but those are quite rare now.
Of course not but why can't you have good visuals to aid even further in your enjoyment? Do I need the best OLED displays, HDR, good sound system, good peripherals and so on to enjoy games? No but they all add to increasing the enjoyment factor. Do I need 170 fps over 90 fps to enjoy a game? Not really but again, it adds to enjoying the experience further. Can I stick 16.9 for gaming? Yes if needs be but 21.9 provides further immersion and enjoyment.
In terms of HDR, based on my own experience, there are far less games with good hdr let alone true native hdr than there is with decent RT e.g. if we look at my list above for example:
not hdr - palworld with the rt enabled is pretty damn nice - https://www.nexusmods.com/palworld/mods/74?tab=description
great hdr - spiderman
no hdr - dying light 2 (with the hdr mod above and RT maxed, it looks incredible, dark scenes are absolutely terrfying now thanks to having proper blacks and gamma)
great hdr - watch dogs legion (meh game but a looker)
no hdr - portal rtx if you're a fan of portal
great hdr - deathloop, runs very well (subtle use of RT but really made a difference)
no hdr - the ascent (prob one of my favourite games recently both visually and gameplay wise)
good hdr - returnal
no hdr - warhammer darktide
no hdr - deliver us the moon and deliver us mars (2 indie game that look really nice with the RT)
iirc, no hdr but didn't play very long - chernobylite
great hdr - ghostwire toyko (mixed views on this but I quite enjoyed it tbh, something different)
ok hdr - icarus
good hdr - f1 23
great hdr - doom eternal (when you get further in the game, there are a lot of areas/levels with metal/glass environments so the RT reflections looks pretty good here)
can't remember, iirc might have been fixed - elden ring iirc, has RT now, although light
no hdr - robocop (although only software RT but still visually good)
passable hdr - avatar
depends on the game, village was great, 4 was good, 2 awful hdr - RE remakes, particularly 4 for me (village wasn't too bad either but very light RT usage where it was quite noticeable in the low res reflections)
good hdr - ark survival ascended (runs really **** but a stunning looking game)
EDIT:
Crysis remastered probably worth a look, which reminds me, I need to get around to playing these with RT! (not played so can't comment on hdr)
HDR is definetly a big factor and I too would probably pick over rt but again, they are completely different things and you should be able to enjoy both.
Right, so "all industries" means 3, as per your statement. "Most games" means games you play or from NVIDIA's list of RT enabled games and let's discard all the indie games and games that aren't the most played games and... you moved the goalpost so many times I got lost by now. Hence, I don't feel like it makes sense to continue this topic now.
RT is becoming more common and will eventually replace good old raster but not today and not tomorrow. It mostly seems to matter to develpers, not actual gamers. As surveys and market show - most gamers either can't use RT or just don't care about it in current state. That will change with time, but we're not there yet, not even close. Which is my point.
RT is becoming more common and will eventually replace good old raster but not today and not tomorrow. It mostly seems to matter to develpers, not actual gamers. As surveys and market show - most gamers either can't use RT or just don't care about it in current state. That will change with time, but we're not there yet, not even close. Which is my point.
HDR can be forced using current NVIDIA's drivers (and mod that uses their AI video HDR thingie) - works very well. If not that, there's also Windows AutoHDR. Both work very well in my experience - sure it's not 100% the same as proper HDR but still way better than SDR. And almost all games I've run work with these (I had a few that didn't, mostly old titles).
That said, what you described is all fine and I never look into anyone's wallet to tell them what to buy or not, but the fact is - it's not mainstream. OLED aren't mainstream TVs, much less so monitors. 4080/4090 aren't mainstream GPUs (even 4070 isn't). It's all hobbyist grade, not much different from what audiophiles do to listen to music. Not necessary, not desired even by mainstream users - most simply do not care one bit about such things, mostly because it's just way too expensive. Till such things become mainstream, RT will not be mainstream and good old raster will still be required for many years to come.
Don
Honestly couldn't care less about raytracing.
I'm predominately a console gamer anyway, but even with games like Spiderman 2 where RT was hyped as making a huge difference - honestly if I didn't know it used RT, I wouldn't have noticed or cared - it's certainly not the game changing upgrade that some seem to believe.
I'm predominately a console gamer anyway, but even with games like Spiderman 2 where RT was hyped as making a huge difference - honestly if I didn't know it used RT, I wouldn't have noticed or cared - it's certainly not the game changing upgrade that some seem to believe.
Right, so "all industries" means 3, as per your statement. "Most games" means games you play or from NVIDIA's list of RT enabled games and let's discard all the indie games and games that aren't the most played games and... you moved the goalpost so many times I got lost by now. Hence, I don't feel like it makes sense to continue this topic now.
RT is becoming more common and will eventually replace good old raster but not today and not tomorrow. It mostly seems to matter to develpers, not actual gamers. As surveys and market show - most gamers either can't use RT or just don't care about it in current state. That will change with time, but we're not there yet, not even close. Which is my point.
Well you should know what I mean when I refer to all industries when we're talking about RT.... as in anything where you will have simulated effects on screen or do you think I'm implying that RT is applicable to the gardening, school etc. industries too?
Again, you're making this out to be a nvidia thing RT with comments like "NVIDIA's list of RT enabled games".... amd have a pretty high amount of sponsored rt games and there are also plenty of titles with no involvement from any brand.
Don't be falling for nvidias rtx marketing.
Well what games do you specifically mean when you say indie titles? Of course I could go and find some random titles uploaded by a 1 man team and go look "RT isn't used!!!!"..... I've provided examples from my side (which are popular games hence why they are used in benchmarks as people actually play these) so what games are you playing which don't have RT?
Do you want more dynamic environments with better destruction, do you want better visuals on the whole? If so, well then it matters to you and anyone else who fits in such categories. I personally want better games but at the same time, I also want to see better graphics. Isn't the reason we all by new gpus etc. partly to allow us to dial up settings? And obviously get better performance? If you really don't care about graphics as per this post:
Then why buy the best gaming display, gpu and so on? Surely you can just enjoy the games on lesser hardware?
Yes I know, I created a thread for this:
RTX HDR for games!
Not tried myself but expected this to happen, imagine it won't be long till Nvidia officially support it themselves. They're killing it with their rtx feature set now! https://www.nexusmods.com/site/mods/781 Ps. By the same guy who created dlss tweaks. EDIT: Now in the beta nvidia driver...
forums.overclockers.co.uk
Windows auto hdr is pretty crap since it raises blacks and doesn't use the correct gamma, windows one is also done on a whitelist basis and based on my experience works in very few titles.
It's fine to say not mainstream and all, I don't dispute this, only dispute claims like "gimmick", "raster isn't going anywhere" (of course not going to happen overnight for the listed reasons) but it is only a matter of time and I think people may be in for a surprise come next gen consoles/especially amds next gen gpus on the RT scene, time will tell.
Well this is where when RT does become far more common/true mainstream and much like avatar and spiderman 2 implementations, you won't even see ray tracing mentioned at all in the graphic settings, it will just simply be under lighting, shadows settings with pre-defined settings, much like how tesselation, ambient occlusion and other graphical effects aren't always shown/listed. Different tech as mentioned earlier but I could be wrong, however, isn't this basically what happened with physx? No longer was really a nvidia only feature but it is still is used and not even an option anymore?
Associate
Nexus, can I ask a question. When designing a game, do you use models, textures and polygons? I'm talking 3D games. Because as far as i'm aware, also being a developer these basic building blocks for a game are all raster. We've had years and years trying to look for replacements, non have been forthcoming. There are faster ways to display certain types (tesselation, voxels etc) but basically it's all triangles or balls in voxels case. RT/PT is a render path, it affects lighting using said geometry or model or textures. Without them you would not have RT/PT unless i'm doing something wrong. The levels in games are exactly the same whether raster or with a RT/PT render path. It's just the lighting and how that light reacts that is different.It doesn't matter if it is a new game, it's a showcase as to what is really capable when RT is done right from the get go, 4a enhanced stated this themselves, obviously was initiated by nvidia but it also ran great on amd too including the consoles.
IN-DEPTH TECHNICAL DIVE INTO METRO EXODUS PC ENHANCED EDITION — 4A Games
OUT NOW! We’re happy to let you know that the Metro Exodus PC Enhanced Edition is now released, bringing on board incredible improvements for Ray Tracing-capable GPUs, including Field of View options, DLSS 2.0, and much more. It is also a free entitlement to current owners – as it is so extensive
You could say it was more so a POC i.e. proof of concept to showcase what's possible.
What about spiderman 2 and avatar? They're new games where there is no way to disable RT.
Lumen is still using RT though isn't it?
I said this from the day RT came about, people seem to think developers can just wait till the hardware gets there then once that happens, it will just be a flick of a switch and there we go, in the RT era, this is not how migration to new workflows/tech works, it is a slow gradual switchover and eventually things get phased out. IIRC, Phil Spencer stated something similar with xbox and the engineers their trying to get to grips with ray tracing, the way all companies are going about it now is a way for them to work out what works, what doesn't, get familiar with a new skillset (if you have a look at job listings for likes of nvidia, amd, game development companies, they actually list jobs specifically tailored to RT), improve for the next time, there is no ideal or better way to move into newer technology.
Well for starters, of the top of my head for ray tracing adoption over the past 3 years:
- all major chipset manufacturers supporting RT hardware i.e. exynos, qualcomm, apple to then phone manufacturers supporting RT i.e. samsung, apple, huawei etc.
- movie/tv show industry although ray tracing has been used here for a long time before gaming (and long before nvidia were interested in RT but I could be wrong on that, perhaps nvidia were involved?) so nothing new but it became a bit more common lately e.g. most pixar films, tv shows like game of thrones, mandalorian
- rendering applications for architects - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsI5dbz-T8Y
Like I said, if you look at all the smaller/indie titles then of course (where anyone can upload literally anything to steam), you're looking at a certain section of games and ignoring the ones that most people play(ed). It's like people who refer to steams most played games to say "RT isn't used" even though the most played games in steam came out before RT was a thing.....
I could for example take your stance and disregard the games you play and go here's the only games I have played over the past 2 years and say, RT in all the games:
This was a post in another thread in terms of just the demanding ones so not even factoring in the ones that run well e.g. riftbreaker kind of RT titles.
It's disingenuous to insinuate that RT is not becoming more integrated/common in the more sought after titles as time goes on unless you are only looking at steam indie titles that most people wouldn't have heard of....
I don't disagree there are plenty of titles with pointless RT e.g. fc 6, halo infinite but those are quite rare now.
Now am I dismissing RT/PT. Not at all, you just can't have one without the other at the present moment in time. RT/PT does not magically conjure up said models/textures/polygons.
A simpler way of putting it is RT/PT is a renderer of those models and lights etc. But it must have those to do it's work. It's one of, but not the only way to get an output. Lumen is another way that uses screen space rendering, not ray traced. Lumen will use ray tracing in the future as the technology catches up
RT isn't worth the performance hit on my 6900XT but I've turned it on in Cyberpunk to see what all the fuss is about and sure, it does look better when I'm looking for it. When I'm not and am concentrating on playing the game I can't say I notice the benefits of RT much, if at all, to be worth the drop in performance. I'd take 120 FPS without RT in any game over 60-70 FPS with RT.
So far a proper HDR display has been a much nicer upgrade. I'll care about RT when it doesn't need a £1,600 GPU to be playable. I'm not interested in frame generation either. I've tried it and am really sensitive to the added input lag. I think DLSS/FSR are great technologies, though I hate that they seem to be a crutch for lazy devs who can't be bothered to optimise their games anymore.
So far a proper HDR display has been a much nicer upgrade. I'll care about RT when it doesn't need a £1,600 GPU to be playable. I'm not interested in frame generation either. I've tried it and am really sensitive to the added input lag. I think DLSS/FSR are great technologies, though I hate that they seem to be a crutch for lazy devs who can't be bothered to optimise their games anymore.
Don
But the point at the minute is that even in a game that was hyped for it's RT visuals, even as an enthusiast I didn't really notice a difference - trying to sell that to "normal" non-enthusiasts is a non-starter.
At the minute the main push for RT seems to be from developers because it makes their life easier .