What is 'woke' and why do we use it?

[ttaskmaster]

Puberty blockers and re-assignment surgery are only performed after considerable evidence of their need.

What need could possibly be evidenced in a child who has not yet lived long enough to properly understand and experience life as either gender, though?
Most people don't even know what it is to 'be a man' or 'be a woman' until several years after they have actually gone through puberty, so blocking that seems rather counter-productive.

That then leads to the question of where they get the idea at age 9 that they're old enough to decide what sex they should be for the rest of their lives...?

 

[Begbie]

My complaint was valid. The anti-trans movement like to say that adults want to push life-altering drugs (they are temporary puberty blockers initially until the child is much older and easily reversed simply by stopping taking them) and want to mutilate genitalia. It is presented as something that adults try to do irrespective of the views of the trans person. Like child abuse. Mutilation rather than surgery. Now I get that's a very fine line I'm drawing there; after all female (and male for that matter) circumcision is not justified in my opinion. But I don't see too many people of any age volunteering for circumcision.

Puberty blockers and re-assignment surgery are only performed after considerable evidence of their need. It's not pushed on unsuspecting children who don't want it. Particularly the latter. I'm not saying that children don't ever take puberty blockers or that quite young people don't have surgery but I am saying it's not because they were pushed into it by woke lefties. And if it does happen, the woke leftie should be prosecuted.

Hopefully we never get to this

Children never know what they want. No child should be put on puberty blockers.

They also aren't temporary at all, and are not easily reversed either.

Use of GnRH analogues might also have long-term effects on:

• Growth spurts
• Bone growth and density
• Future fertility — depending on when pubertal blockers are started

Never mind the pyscholgical trauma when they realise they actually didn't want it, and it was just them being a child.

 

[MikeTimbers]

The BBC article linked above about "Zoey" a 9-year-old was linked by an anti-treatment proponent.

The puberty suppressors Zoey and others take are reversible and FDA-approved because they have been used for decades in children going through premature puberty.

From the same article

Before receiving puberty blockers, children must undergo mental health evaluations, strict medical screenings and counselling.

I do not believe that adults are forcing this on anyone. (In general obviously; there may of course be weird sickos out there as outliers)

 

[C Kent]

The BBC article linked above about "Zoey" a 9-year-old was linked by an anti-treatment proponent.

You know the article you are quoting is 8 years old right? The NHS changed the terminology around puberty blockers in 2020 for one.
From:

“The effects of treatment with GnRH analogues are considered to be fully reversible, so treatment can usually be stopped at any time after a discussion between you, your child and your MDT”.

To:

“Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria. Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.
It’s also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children’s bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.”

We now know that blockers do affect bone structure development. There is also the fact that trials have shown that puberty blockers impair brain development in significant areas, which is not reversed if blockers are discontinued. There is also a window of development in puberty which, if missed, cannot be regained at a later stage.

From the same article

And yet there are numerous stories like the one below that show how easy this is to circumvent

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654188094797520897

I do not believe that adults are forcing this on anyone. (In general obviously; there may of course be weird sickos out there as outliers)

And yet they are.

 

[MikeTimbers]

You know the article you are quoting is 8 years old right? The NHS changed the terminology around puberty blockers in 2020 for one.
From:

To:

We now know that blockers do affect bone structure development. There is also the fact that trials have shown that puberty blockers impair brain development in significant areas, which is not reversed if blockers are discontinued. There is also a window of development in puberty which, if missed, cannot be regained at a later stage.

And yet there are numerous stories like the one below that show how easy this is to circumvent

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654188094797520897

And yet they are.

I quoted from that article as it was originally linked by ttaskmaster at post 209. Perhaps ask him why he quoted an article that is 8 years old to support the position that I am arguing against.

Good to know that medicinal knowledge is improving. Thanks for that.

You repeat the claim that adults are forcing this on children. Where is the evidence please? So far no-one has posted any evidence that adults are forcing this on anyone.

 

[C Kent]

You repeat the claim that adults are forcing this on children. Where is the evidence please? So far no-one has posted any evidence that adults are forcing this on anyone.

Who do you think are the ones that are brain washing children like the one in the linked clip?

 

[Begbie]

The BBC article linked above about "Zoey" a 9-year-old was linked by an anti-treatment proponent.



From the same article



I do not believe that adults are forcing this on anyone. (In general obviously; there may of course be weird sickos out there as outliers)

Your source is out of date.

I quoted from that article as it was originally linked by ttaskmaster at post 209. Perhaps ask him why he quoted an article that is 8 years old to support the position that I am arguing against.

Good to know that medicinal knowledge is improving. Thanks for that.

You repeat the claim that adults are forcing this on children. Where is the evidence please? So far no-one has posted any evidence that adults are forcing this on anyone.

You need evidence that a 9 year old is capable to make life alternating decisions on their own accord?

What world are we living in?

Have you met a 9 year old?

There's also numerous cases of children being groomed online, convincing them to trans and how to go against their parents etc.

 

[MikeTimbers]

Who do you think are the ones that are brain washing children like the one in the linked clip?

I don't know. Are they doctors? Medical professionals? Psychiatrists? Or the outlier weirdos I accepted may exist.

It is not a policy to do this. If you think this is a policy, then you accept that the crazies on the right going on about election robbery is an official policy (actually that might be so!) of the right. Or that moon landings are fake. Or that the Earth is actually a Disc on the back of four elephants on the back of Great A'Tuin.

You're confusing online communities with policy.

 

[MikeTimbers]

Your source is out of date.




You need evidence that a 9 year old is capable to make life alternating decisions on their own accord?

What world are we living in?

Have you met a 9 year old?

There's also numerous cases of children being groomed online, convincing them to trans and how to go against their parents etc.

Wasn't my source!!! Jeez Louise. I quoted ttaskmaster.

I haven't met this 9-year-old, no. Obviously. It appears that this particular child was stating from as young as she could talk that she was a girl not a boy and had had considerable therapy from counsellors before being given the puberty blockers to allow her to not become sexually mature until she could make a more informed decision. I don't know and neither do you.

There are 9-year-olds and there are nine-year-olds. I don't pretend to know that all of them are unable to have an opinion. You must be very wise.

 

[C Kent]

I don't know. Are they doctors? Medical professionals? Psychiatrists? Or the outlier weirdos I accepted may exist.

It is not a policy to do this. If you think this is a policy, then you accept that the crazies on the right going on about election robbery is an official policy (actually that might be so!) of the right. Or that moon landings are fake. Or that the Earth is actually a Disc on the back of four elephants on the back of Great A'Tuin.

You're confusing online communities with policy.

Where are you getting the idea that I said it was policy? Maybe go back to the post you originally replied to. In fact, I'll quote it for you:

Its a very simple question, you said people with extremist far left views should be ignored, I'm asking you what you would consider an example of that to be.
Small example, I'd consider thinking its ok to give children life altering drugs and chopping off their genitalia to be extremist. Buts that's a fairly common view held by folks on the left.

We were talking about people holding extreme views.

 

[Nitefly]

Honestly, this discussion is hurting my head.

The original claim was as follows:

Its a very simple question, you said people with extremist far left views should be ignored, I'm asking you what you would consider an example of that to be.
Small example, I'd consider thinking its ok to give children life altering drugs and chopping of their genitalia to be extremist. Buts that's a fairly common view held by folks on the left.

^ that is a wild statement IMO.

@MikeTimbers is now (rightly) pointing out that this doesn’t seem to be based on anything, yet he is now being asked to prove that 8 year olds are capable of making informed decisions. Wtf! Makes no sense whatsoever… it’s maddening to read!

MikeT is asking for people to show how 8 year olds are being pushed into these decisions, since it seems that these children (of which there are few) are behaving in this way on their own accord.

I think everyone can agree that an 8 year old doesn’t have the decision-making nuance of an adult, but if people are born feeling strongly like they are a different gender then it’s presumably a long and difficult path for parents deciding what is best for the child based on professional psychological advice, then just going with that and hoping for the best knowing you did all that you could.

If my child started acting like they were a different gender than their sex suggested, then I’d seek psychological advice from a professional - as surely any sensible adult would.

 

[C Kent]

Honestly, this discussion is hurting my head.

The original claim was as follows:



^ that is a wild statement IMO.

@MikeTimbers is now (rightly) pointing out that this doesn’t seem to be based on anything, yet he is now being asked to prove that 8 year olds are capable of making informed decisions. Wtf! Makes no sense whatsoever… it’s maddening to read!

MikeT is asking for people to show how 8 year olds are being pushed into these decisions, since it seems that these children (of which there are few) are behaving in this way on their own accord.

I think everyone can agree that an 8 year old doesn’t have the decision-making nuance of an adult, but if people are born feeling strongly like they are a different gender then it’s presumably a long and difficult path for parents deciding what is best for the child based on professional psychological advice, then just going with that and hoping for the best knowing you did all that you could.

If my child started acting like they were a different gender than their sex suggested, then I’d seek psychological advice from a professional - as surely any sensible adult would.

Ok, simple question for you and all the leftists here - simple yes or no will suffice.
Do you think children (17 and under) should be given Puberty Blockers.
I'm willing to bet the majority will say yes.

 

[Tony Edwards]

Honestly, this discussion is hurting my head.

The thing is these same people dont like adult trans either so its not just about children.

 

[MikeTimbers]

Where are you getting the idea that I said it was policy? Maybe go back to the post you originally replied to. In fact, I'll quote it for you:

We were talking about people holding extreme views.

You said it was a common view held by folks on the left. Now it's an extreme view? Which is it?

I could throw in some whataboutery and mention those on the right who try to "cure" homosexuality at best and kill LGBTQ+ people at worst. So anti-woke is just as bad. I'm sure the crazies on the right are just a minority. Just like those who want to mutilate (emotive word) genitalia.

 

[MikeTimbers]

Ok, simple question for you and all the leftists here - simple yes or no will suffice.
Do you think children (17 and under) should be given Puberty Blockers.
I'm willing to bet the majority will say yes.

Yes, if the medical professionals deem it necessary. Puberty blockers were invented to delay early onset puberty. In young children of 8 or 9, getting the menarche is a really scary thing. They probably have no idea what is happening to them. And as the out-of-date Zoey article states, children have killed themselves over such things.

 

[Nitefly]

Ok, simple question for you and all the leftists here - simple yes or no will suffice.
Do you think children (17 and under) should be given Puberty Blockers.
I'm willing to bet the majority will say yes.

The simple answer to that (in respect of an individual) is: it depends?

If it’s recommended by medical / psychological professionals, or is considered by them to be a reasonable option, then it’s probably sensible?

I’m not the sort of person to have a local anaesthetic and tell the surgeon what he should be doing mid-operation.

Really, unless you’re a professional trained in the subject matter, how on earth could you possibly have ‘an opinion’ on the subject?

 

[C Kent]

You said it was a common view held by folks on the left. Now it's an extreme view? Which is it?

You know that the 2 things arent mutually exclusive right?

Yes, if the medical professionals deem it necessary. Puberty blockers were invented to delay early onset puberty. In young children of 8 or 9, getting the menarche is a really scary thing. They probably have no idea what is happening to them. And as the out-of-date Zoey article states, children have killed themselves over such things.

Even knowing that the vast majority, 80-90% of children, will outgrow any feelings of dysphoria without medical intervention?

so, thats 2 for 2 so far, thanks for proving my point lads.

 

[Nitefly]

You know that the 2 things arent mutually exclusive right?


Even knowing that the vast majority, 80-90% of children, will outgrow any feelings of dysphoria without medical intervention?

so, thats 2 for 2 so far, thanks for proving my point lads.

Was the point you were looking to prove that we would follow medical advice issued by a professional?

Since when was following medical advice ‘extreme’ or ‘left leaning’?

If the medical advice issued to my hypothetical child was to NOT provide them with puberty blockers, then likewise I would follow that.

 

[mattx4]

Since when was following medical advice ‘extreme’ or ‘left leaning’?

Pretty much since COVID

 

[C Kent]

Was the point you were looking to prove that we would follow medical advice issued by a professional?

Since when was following medical advice ‘extreme’ or ‘left leaning’?

If the medical advice issued to my hypothetical child was to NOT provide them with puberty blockers, then likewise I would follow that.

"professional"
I would be wondering why a professional would be issuing life altering drugs to a child when the vast majority don't need it, but that's just me. Especially when those drugs/gender affirmation result in negligible 'positive' outcomes.