Suspended
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Are ENVE & Lightweight considered factory? I suppose they must be. I doubt you'd find better construction.
Wheels - Handbuilt vs Factory
- Thread starter Big.Wayne
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Are ENVE & Lightweight considered factory? I suppose they must be. I doubt you'd find better construction.
Suspended
- Joined
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Which "enthusiast" buys a wheel without wanting a particular hub with a particular rim? (and spokes)
Lots do?! Jesus you lead a sheltered life. Go over to Bike Radar forums and browse. Loads of people buy stock wheels and swap bits; it's hardly uncommon.
Soldato
What does? having a wheel built vs factory?
Ho-Lee-Sheet spends 15mins bashing out wheel #7of40 and bob spends an hour building the same wheel I believe the hand-built will be superior . . . what do you think?
Sorry I don't follow?
Well as already mention I myself can't find an off-the-shelf wheel that is "just so" . . . either I am a picky git or your just easily pleased but either way I'm pleased for you.
This is absolutely nothing to-do with cycle snobbery? this is a spectacular misunderstanding of the topic? . . . hand built wheels are not expensive unless you think £160 for a set of custom 700c disk hub wheels are expensive? (you might I don't know?).
That a wheel builder spends more time building a wheel certainly could be where there is value added. Whether it adds any value I'm not sure but that in itself doesn't necessarily make it a better wheel.
A decent factory wheel manufacturer would have invested money on R&D, using computational fluid dynamics software to optimise aero profiles, use different resins and lay ups on brake tracks to improve braking performance, have test rigs for life testing etc. Of course a wheel builder could have all these things but it costs a lot of money and not something I expect a wheel builder to invest in. A wheel manufacturer yes, a builder no.
A decent wheel manufacturer after spending money on R&D trying to sell a product that differentiates itself from the mass market, I doubt then sells its IP on the open market to wheel builders. Do zipp, reynolds, lightweight or mavic sell their hoops on the open market to wheel builders? They may do I don't know.
There is a huge amount of snobbery in cycling and perhaps I misread it but the part you wrote about "what enthusiast buys a wheel without wanting a particular hub and spokes" smacked of snobbery.
A wheel builder just puts components that are avilable on the mass market together, there is little to no innovation / R&D. It offers customisation for sure and it offers a potentially longer build time whether that yields a better product I'm not convinced.
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Soldato
High tension/aero spokes? I thought most LBS wouldn't touch them with a barge pole
I don't know as I have never had to have a spoke replaced. That said, when I was researching what wheels I wanted to buy for my build, people on forums were taking zipps to LBS to replace spokes.
Caporegime
The idea is that a wheel builder does a better job than a machine when it comes to actually building the wheel ie assembling hub, rim and spokes. Chances are they do, because they have a different feel for it compared to a machine. Whether that makes a difference in terms of actual ride quality and longevity once you get them on the road, I don't know.
I had a wheel built using a Powertap SL+ hub 24 spoke.
First build by the LBS had lots of issues using Fulcrum 7 rim.
Guy up the coast recommended Hplus rim and Saipim spokes (from memory), it's been perfect ever since and I've done a heap of km, maybe 20'000.
I have off the shelf R500s, Zipp and Enve wheels. Had no problems with any going out of true.
First build by the LBS had lots of issues using Fulcrum 7 rim.
Guy up the coast recommended Hplus rim and Saipim spokes (from memory), it's been perfect ever since and I've done a heap of km, maybe 20'000.
I have off the shelf R500s, Zipp and Enve wheels. Had no problems with any going out of true.
Suspended
The more expensive factory wheels are hand checked and finished. A wheel builder doesn't really add any more value than a bike builder; all they are doing is assembling pre-made components.
Hi Bear,
thanks for following my train of thought although some of what you posted does go above my head.
I'm not a wheel guru but a geeky enthusiast who really enjoys time spent out on the open road, I graduated from the life academy of bang-for-buck so the fact you see my posts coming off as snobbish is quite amusing as I spend very little on my cycling "hobby" and always push for the best value. I've been on the saddle for over 40 years and its only the past three years that I've actually become geeky and immersed myself in the "tech" and reasoning behind the cycle.
As I have been mostly happy most of my riding career with the bog standard value factory wheels that come with the bike I have no understanding or interest in the upper end of the market, I don't really even browse any hardware that costs more than £100 so up until making this post I was unaware that the big brands offered wheels for sale that used protected I.P, all the wheels I have ever looked at personally equal the sum of their parts and all the parts can be picked up individually hence why I was questioning the difference between factory built vs hand built.
As mentioned in the O.P the only reason I now have had built wheels is because I wanted silver 700c disk hub wheels. To my amazement I couldn't find the required wheel in Silver? The Cycle industry only provided black wheels (or multicoloured). Am I am snob because I want some control of my steeds colour scheme? Am I a snob because I'm enthusiastic about the hardware that I use in my machine? I don't think so? . . . Is it snobbish to put a nice coloured bar-tape on your bike, to clip on a solar powered radio or to swap out your black tyres for blue ones? I don't think it is but if you want to make a case that any customisation of a machine = snobbery I will indulge you because I am only hear to listen to what other people think as I'm interested to learn.
I've heard of Zipp wheels but from what I have seen the prices are not reasonable to me therefore I didn't scrutinize them or any other high end wheels, up until this thread I was unaware some of the parts of these factory built wheels were not for sale separately, that's interesting and adds something to this topic.
When you state "A wheel builder just puts components that are available on the mass market together, there is little to no innovation/R&D" I'm not sure if I agree, my thinking is that the wheel-builder has so much choice of components at their disposal that it's possible to both "innovate" and perform R&D . . . keeping it simple look at the possibilities below:
- Rims: material, construction, width, size, weight, spoke holes, colour
- Spokes: material, construction, width, size, weight, colour
- Hubs: material, construction, width, size, weight spoke holes, colour, bearings, axel, dynamo
If this is right I don't agree because its based on the "assumption" that the big companies know better than you or I what our needs our and what is best for us. Have you ever taken part in an extensive MAVIC customer feedback consensus, have you spoke your mind about the wheel with anyone from MAVIC? I'm guessing not but who knows? . . My point is if MAVIC or another large wheel factory don't know what you think is best how can they make a product which fits an individual's needs.
You could argue that they employ hardcore boffins with masters in Classical Mechanics but I wouldn't pay much attention to that line of reasoning as I'm only influenced by actual facts i.e this wheel is better because it was designed by a professor vs this wheel is better because the professor who designed it realised that [xyz technical innovation] improved the [xyz technical barrier].
I am taking the position that MAVIC/ZIPP don't know more about wheels then you or I and that what they are releasing in mainly based on random market research, test results and probably quite a bit of feedback from racing pros but all of this combined does not mean a dedicated wheel-builder cannot "innovate" or perform "R&D"
I remember 16 years ago working with a bunch of fellow computer enthusiasts on this very forum, we were taking products from HUGE corporations like INTEL and modding them, squeezing more power from the product. As a group of unpaid enthusiast overclockers worldwide we were performing R&D, we were innovating and sometimes producing clouds of thick black smoke coming from our machines when it didn't come right but we were cutting edge and were ahead of the "mainstream" by many years
Personally, I don't see any difference between INTEL and MAVIC, although their markets are different in essence they are both technology companies. So if simple but passionate enthusiasts can outperform a tech giant in the world of computing doesn't it stand to reason that a similar bunch of simple but passionate enthusiasts can outperform a tech giant in the world of Cycle-wheel?
My conclusion so far is that the cycle industry is still in the dark ages, innovation is slow and plodding and from my personal viewpoint doesn't offer me the products I want or would like.
When I look at a computer I see both a tool that serves a purpose and also a machine containing a dozen different bits of technology that I can select myself, according to my needs and "wants", conversely when I look at a cycle I see both a tool that serves a purpose and also a machine containing a dozen different bits of technology that I can select myself, according to my needs and "wants" (Ok I could live without silver wheels but I really "wanted" them, they look nicer to my eyes).
I can even say the same principle applies to just the wheel, there is so much customisation possible by mixing the variety of spokes, rim, hubs that I am genuinely surprised that the same smart tech savvy gentlemen who spec'ed, built and overclocked their own personal computers are not just as enthusiastic about "over clocking" their cycles, spending time to understand the hardware and the basic principles of classical mechanics to experiment, innovate and just eek the extra performance.
The wheel is the principle technology in cycling so it's an obvious target for innovation but innovation is so damn slow in the world of cycling, look at how far the mainstream wheel has evolved in over 5,000 years
I think personally the wheel is very interesting and I've learnt enough basics to actually physically alter my machine so am able to cycle faster and further. The same curiosity that made me tinker with my computer, get under the hood, changes voltages etc is exactly the same curiosity that makes me pull my hubs apart to service the cones, experiment with different bearings, spokes, spoke count (and colour!), rim width, construction, material, all the while the main focus is actually using the cycle for the beautiful hobby we all enjoy while trying to keep my money in my pocket.
From the limited feedback I have received so far it seems a number of you are just plain not interested, or have your consumer needs met just fine by the factory wheel manufacturers.
I want all of you who haven't already done so to consider having a hand-built wheel next time you're in the mood for an upgrade, after you look at the bog standard wheels on offer from the factories I want you to think about your perfect wheel and look at the price of the parts. If anyone intends to spend more than £300 on a wheel I would be grateful if you could explain your reasoning behind this.
If any of you have useful feedback about stock factory wheels that you have owned I'd be interested to learn from your insights (good or bad) . . . If any of you have useful feedback about wheel technology I'd be interested to hear about it.
So in summary, this is my current position:
- Some people think owning or talking about a hand built wheel is snobbish
- Some people just buy factory wheels because they "like the brand and that's all there is to it"
- Some people assume a hand-built wheel equals expensive ££££
- Some people assume the product being released is the best possible product
- Some people assume a hand-built wheel gets more craftsmanship time
- Some people assume a wheel warranty is useful when a spoke breaks in the wilderness
- Some people assume the factory hand-check and finish is equal/better than a good wheel builders hand-check and finish
Soldato
I'm going to take the opposite position and say that those guys know a hell of a lot more about wheels than anybody here.
Yes, the stuff the wheel manufacturers release is based on market research, test results and pro feedback. What other factors do you base your knowledge on that gives you a greater insight than these companies?
Suspended
Wayne, you have either got a chip on your shoulder, you are trolling or you are clueless. Which is it? Why is it snobby to own a particular set of wheels? Are you poor? If so, so what? We aren't judging you. No-one here cares how much you earn or what bike or kit you have; this thread is for people who love cycling to come together and discuss the sport. As long as you enjoy riding your bike that's all that matters, no-one cares about anything else. It isn't a willy waving competition.
As regards the rest of your post, Mavic know more about wheels than you or anyone here. As Touch said above.
As regards the rest of your post, Mavic know more about wheels than you or anyone here. As Touch said above.
Caporegime
Mavic have been making bike parts, presumably including wheels, since 1889, so I'm inclined to agree with you...
Cool, I'd like to hear your reasoning behind this statement!
What is your opinion on "tweaking" a wheel, like do you have any interest in making adjustments to your wheels or do you just trust everything is optimal and don't really get involved?
Well I'd say a personal understanding of the various principles involved goes a long way as does actually paying attention and identifying if something is true or false. Of course actual hands-on experience goes a long way to forming an opinion
I've found out that by tinkering with either a stock factory built wheel or a custom hand built wheel I am able to get better performance from the product and I'm wondering what yours and others opinions are? . . . You haven't added anything new to this topic but simply re-enforced some of the assumptions I highlighted in my previous post? . . . that is "others no better than you"
Well if others knew better than me I wouldn't have to "tinker" with my wheels, they would arrive set-up perfect out-the-box 100% performance right off the bat . . . however I personally didn't find this too be the case, the wheel always worked better after I adjusted it? . . . others indeed may know better than me but I don't see the harm in asking for a reason?
Boffins doing expensive R&D, market research and feedback from Pros does not in any way mean a big company knows what is the right product for me?
I'm one of those customers who likes to make my own mind up whats best for me, if your one of those people who is happy to just not question something then its no skin of my nose but I don't see it as unusual to look at something and really scrutize the facts . . . keyword facts!
If you're not interested in this topic that's fair enough but we are just having a chat and sharing experiences, insights and opinions.
What's your thoughts on hand-builts?
Don
You keep saying that you improve the performance of your wheels, but how do you actually know? Whilst you are busy "innovating" in your shed, I assume companies like Mavic are actually performing wind tunnel and other kinds of test against their wheels and components, to prove that their "innovation" actually works.
Caporegime
Truing your wheels and regreasing hubs is not r&d. What else are you claiming goes on in that shed of yours?
Soldato
I get what you are saying and I see your analogy with computing. With your computer, any changes and optimisation can be quantified be it CPUID and churning pi to a million decimal places or running benchmarks etc.
How have you quantified the tweaks to your wheels to come to the conclusion you have made measurable improvements?
Guys for goodness sake try and have a level conversation, don't zoom in on me, look at the name of the topic, we are discussing the difference between factory wheels and hand-built, some of you are not actually stating anything useful, if you have nothing to add find a more constructive use of your time please.
If you think the factory wheels are the best their can be thats fine but none of you have provided a level reasoned arguement that has provided insight and my opinion remains unchanged.
Whether Mavic or any of the other big wheel manufacturers know better than myself or anyone else here is just a small part of this topic.
Now then, can we tone it down and discuss things rationally with a level head, take the time to read and understand somebodies post before jumping to conclusions. It's clear a couple of you have misunderstood the purpose of this thread and are writing answers to posts that do not exisit haha!
If you think the factory wheels are the best their can be thats fine but none of you have provided a level reasoned arguement that has provided insight and my opinion remains unchanged.
Whether Mavic or any of the other big wheel manufacturers know better than myself or anyone else here is just a small part of this topic.
Now then, can we tone it down and discuss things rationally with a level head, take the time to read and understand somebodies post before jumping to conclusions. It's clear a couple of you have misunderstood the purpose of this thread and are writing answers to posts that do not exisit haha!
Thanks Bear, I have spun them and timed how long they remain in motion and I have also timed myself cycling a fixed course. I have made personal observations on how long a wheel stays in true and measured the different contact patche sizes created from different sized rims to see if this affects performance/handling.
I haven't quite got my head around the weight mechanics of a wheel but I can't help but notice that everyone overtakes me and my heavy wheels on a climb but then get left behind on a descent.
Lots of stuff I don't understand yet but hoping there are some fellow "tweakers" out there who have either customize a factory wheel or had a custom spec wheels built which has improved the performance of the cycle.
Soldato
really scrutize the facts . . . keyword facts!
Facts like these?
That holds zero scientific value. There's far too many variables to give you any indication if the tweaks* you have made make any effect.
*What "tweaks" do you make to improve your wheels anyway? Truing them and servicing bearings are not "tweaks" or "customisation", it's just basic maintenance.
Caporegime
As I said, truing a factory wheel is not customising it.
Edit: beaten.
Edit: beaten.
touch, do me a favour and make an effort or jog on please, you're not enriching this thread in any form or shape, have brought nothing to the table other than to inform me you have taken the opposite position but have brought nothing to bear to support your position.
In a civilised discussion not only do you state your opinion but then make an effort to demonstrate how you arrived at this conclusion, this is basics so I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
I'm sure you have something interesting to say and I'm pretty sure you're a reasonable chap so please do me the courtesy of explaining your viewpoint because I don't think you can, it's just another assumption your mistaking for the truth tut!
If you make the time and effort to explain your reasoning and its good you know you may convince me and I will change my position, conversely I may be able to show you some flaws in your reasoning and you may actually revise a subject that formerly you had made your mind up on
This is the whole point of a discussion forum right, so discuss Wheels - Handbuilt vs Factory, do you think factory wheels are superior, do you actually even want to discuss this topic or are you just farting around on the forums?
Please don't criticize my personal findings, you have no right to mocks my efforts to make my cycle work better, you think you can just wander into a public thread and shout your mouth off with not a single word written by yourself that even comes close to holding scientific value (or any value), you just walk in, say you totally disagree with me and make the statement " those guys know a hell of a lot more about wheels than anybody here" . . . this is such low grade conversation and your coming across like a dick.
Speaking for myself and based on limited experience the wheels I tinker with work better, just through some simple mechanical adjustment, whether we call that a *tweak* or "basic maintenance" I don't mind but either way the machine works a little better after I've interacted with it.
Then one starts wondering what else can be done, how else can I tinker with this design, this set of components to make them work better. We did this before with computers so it stands to reason it can be done with wheels
I have said "I think we can make wheels faster" and I have said "I don't think factory wheels are the best there is" and I have also said "Do you think it's possible to experiment with all the various bits of hardware to create a better product for you, the "individual"
You have said the "IMO big company knows better than anyone here" which is a really stupid and self defeating thing to say.
So with all due respect if you don't have anything actually constructive to add to this topic I will bless you with love and send you on your way
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