Wheels - Handbuilt vs Factory

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Disk brakes aren't something i consider necessary on a road bike, but disk-specific rims are starting to appear now. There's a disk version of the DT R460 that looks like great value
You wouldn't be the first person to say that but its hard to hold back the tide of progress. I'm a big fan of disk brakes on a road cycle but the industry is damn slow to move over . . . It's not been easy trying to own/create a wheel that fits my wants/needs and I'm glad that disk breaks are gaining popularity because more hardware is being released

Avid BB5/BB7's come highly recomended by myself for whats thats worth!

i like open pro, but i'd probably look at the h plus son archetype instead...
My god, I want it mummy! . . . available in "high polish silver" :eek:

Can I run 28c tyres with that?
 
BB7s are okay but BB5s are not something I would recommend to people. These days in fact I wouldn't recommend BB7s over alternatives such as TRP Spyres. Of course, hydraulic discs leave all the above options in the dust anyhow.
 
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BB7s are okay but BB5s are not something I would recommend to people. These days in fact I wouldn't recommend BB7s over alternatives such as TRP Spyres. Of course, hydraulic discs leave all the above options in the dust anyhow.

I agree and disagree, BB5's are good enough to bring 200Kg of man to a halt pretty damn sharpish, used them for two years before upgrading to the BB7's which I have also been using two years. Honestly BB7's are very underrated because it takes a little patience and finesse to set them up correctly, tech level no more complicated than a half decent over clock. BB7's with genuine AVID sintered have been flawless for the past two years, still got the same pads in the front and have only just swapped out the rears.

Having said that I have been eyeing up TRP spyres for the past year, the price just keeps falling. The only reason I wanted to try out the spyres is that they are two piston and squeeze the rotor equally from both sides, not like that's a biggie but as the market slowly migrates over from 6-bolt hubs to Centre-lock hubs I noticed that most of the newer Rotors are really solid and do not flex, it seems they are designed for a 2-piston brake calliper which doesn't play nice with the BB7's, it almost cuts the braking power in half as the BB7 piston cannot push/flex the new stiffer rotors and therefore its harder to get both pads engaged. The stock AVID Clean-sweep rotors flex so the single piston is able to force the rotor against the second pad.

I have never used hydraulic disk brakes so reserve judgement, at this point I don't understand why people are always saying hydro is the way, something to do with the way the pads *auto* adjust so you don't have to fiddle with them much once they are set up? . . . I'm a little bit scared of the horror stories I've read about the brake fluid leaking/drying up from cracked ceramic pistons which results in severe break fade and a big accidents? . . . I'm speculating of course and being open minded I guess I will have to evaluate hydro brakes myself, your recommendation has been duly noted!
 
Have you had a spoke break touch? I don't see any other way to cycle 200k into the wilderness without having spares on you, especially audax where you meant to be self sufficient.

I have had spokes break before, it's very uncommon for me though. It's not too difficult to adjust the tension on the other spokes to get it straight enough to ride on. You might need to loosen off the brake if you've got rim brakes but disk brakes will be fine.

I also have a lot of experience of being self-sufficient miles away from the nearest road and without phone signal. For me, there's no way I could carry spares and tools for every possible component that could break.
I take zip ties, tape, inner tubes, multi tool and a knife. That can fix pretty much anything.

Here's an off-topic story from my weekend ride:
Riding in the cairngorms, slashed a tyre sidewall on something - not sure what, I didnt notice it happening at the time but soon spotted the tube bulging out and stopped.
My mate had a tube of primula cheese with him, so I cut that into a flat sheet of plastic and wrapped it around the inner tube then fitted a few zip ties around the tyre to give a bit more support.
RG9N9ni.jpg
I was riding carefully to avoid sharp rocks and things as much as possible with the front wheel but it held up really well. I managed to get the zip ties into the gaps between the tyre tread so they were a bit more protected but I was still really impressed by them.
That repair held together for the rest of the ride - another 75 miles or so over rough ground.

Primula cheese may now become an important part of my toolkit :p
 
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Those rims can can be used for rim or disc brakes. :)
Thank you scotty, I do realise that but they are not designed specifically for disk brakes. Not that it's a huge deal but I suspect a disk-specific rim has some engineering adjustments/advantages, for instance that aero curve could begin straight away instead of remaining flat for the rim brakes to squarely interface with, if there are curves at the top for some reason I guess it would be slightly better if the curve travelled all the way down to the tyre?

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I have had spokes break before, it's very uncommon for me though.
Judging by that photo it looks like you have a hovercraft tyre and very strong 2mm plain gauge spokes, with tyres that wide and running at low PSI it would be almost impossible for you to break a spoke, those tyres absorb most of the shocks, it literally is a hovercraft!

For me I have 28c tyres running at 125 psi on tarmac, I currently weigh 270lbs . . . if I hit a bad flaw in the road thats a lot of force attacking the metal in my wheel . . . Seems we have very different scenarios.

It's not too difficult to adjust the tension on the other spokes to get it straight enough to ride on
I'm not sure about that, what cycle are we talking about, what kind of geometry?. Again looking at your photo that's almost a balloon bike so the chain stays will be so far apart to accommodate the wide tyres that even a broken spoke won't throw out the wheel enough to clash with the chain stay.

Have you got a road cycle that is designed to run mainly 23c/25c/28c tyres max, the geometry is so tight that losing a single spoke (32x3) is enough to literally weld the tyre against the chain stay, I couldn't adjust the remaining 31 spokes to make it ridable, I don't know maybe I'm not that good mechanic or maybe your basing your opinion on a cycle frame that gives a very generous wheel clearance?

I guess I'm ok now as my new fatter wheel is coping well, staying in true etc, the previous wheel threw up some warning signs before the spokes started snapping.

I also have a lot of experience of being self-sufficient miles away from the nearest road and without phone signal. For me, there's no way I could carry spares and tools for every possible component that could break. I take zip ties, tape, inner tubes, multi tool and a knife. That can fix pretty much anything.

Here's an off-topic story from my weekend ride:
that looks fun, you really are in a different cycling planet to me, looks like a photo from the Mars roover! . . . Do you mainly cycle on other planets or do you burn up the tarmac also? . . .
 
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Have you got a road cycle that is designed to run mainly 23c/25c/28c tyres max, the geometry is so tight that losing a single spoke (32x3) is enough to literally weld the tyre against the chain stay, I couldn't adjust the remaining 31 spokes to make it ridable

I have several road bikes. Somebody put a pedal through my wheel once on my race bike and took out a spoke. It rubbed hard against the frame but I couldnt stop (going quite fast at the time and in the middle of a bunch too). That ended up exploding the tube because of the heat build up of the tyre rubbing.
You dont need to adjust all the spokes and make it perfectly true, just 3-4 spokes either side of the broken one is usually enough to pull it straightish and get it rolling without rubbing.
I'm not saying you can properly fix the wheel by doing that - it'll still have a wobble in it, just that you can get it straight enough to ride home, even on a frame with tight clearances.

that looks fun, you really are in a different cycling planet to me, looks like a photo from the Mars roover! . . . Do you mainly cycle on other planets or do you burn up the tarmac also? . . .
I'm mostly a road cyclist but I do like to venture into the wilderness on my MTB now and then. I'm in the Scottish Highlands:
jRpUURM.jpg
 
Wow that photo is out of this world, I'd love to spend the day cycling around there.

please post up some more info on your wheels please, the different types and why you chose them. I've almost got tunnel vision when I think of a cycle, always roads, disk brakes. I'm interested to discuss ways to improve a wheel that will allow you either too 1) travel faster across short timed runs (i.e loop of richmond park) or travel further distance with less fatigue.

I'm aware that personal fitness, weight, training etc play a big part but regarding this thread I'm mainly interested in taking the wheel and trying to work out the barriers.

I'm sure the big wheel manufacturers with their big R&D budgets are working on the same problems but I would prefere to push on myself and with anyone else who is interested.

We could wait to be spoon fed the next portion of technology by the big players or we could look at the scenarios and identify the issues and workarounds ourselves.

Have you looked into it much touch? like have you studied the ideas and science behind the wheel, for instance do you have any idea if there is an advantage to a lighter wheel over a heavier wheel, I don't know myself but there are a lot of weight weenies around so I get the impression lighter is better but I don't know the reason why?

Isn't weight an advantage in a wheel?
 
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I'm sure the big wheel manufacturers with their big R&D budgets are working on the same problems but I would prefere to push on myself and with anyone else who is interested.

the big wheel manufacturers are making the components that you're handbuilding together anyway....
 
Have you looked into it much touch? like have you studied the ideas and science behind the wheel, for instance do you have any idea if there is an advantage to a lighter wheel over a heavier wheel, I don't know myself but there are a lot of weight weenies around so I get the impression lighter is better but I don't know the reason why?

Isn't weight an advantage in a wheel?

Lighter wheels are useful for climbing hills as the less weight you have to battle gravity going up hill, the less effort/energy you need to expend to maintain a certain speed. On top of that, a lighter wheel will aid in rapid changes in speed as a rotating mass stores energy hence the flywheel in your car. So if you are racing a course with lots of turns and bursts of hard acceleration efforts the lighter wheel would be beneficial.

Conversely a heavier wheel will be harder to accelerate quickly but once up to speed, will be easier to hold that speed on the flats and of course going down hill the extra weight will aid you.

So if you are going out for a hilly ride, use lightweight wheels and on flat and rolling rides use an aero wheel which generally will be heavier.

Personally I'm a fat **** so I use an aero wheel as any weight on my wheels are dwarfed by my waistline but I am working on it :o
 
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I'm interested to discuss ways to improve a wheel that will allow you either too 1) travel faster across short timed runs (i.e loop of richmond park)

The only way changing a wheel will allow you to travel faster is
1) It is more aerodynamically efficient
2) It is lighter and the route has lots of ascents / or requires lots of stop start acceleration.



I'm aware that personal fitness, weight, training etc play a big part but regarding this thread I'm mainly interested in taking the wheel and trying to work out the barriers.

I'm not sure what barriers you think are achievable goals to break by simply swapping components.

I'm sure the big wheel manufacturers with their big R&D budgets are working on the same problems but I would prefere to push on myself and with anyone else who is interested.

We could wait to be spoon fed the next portion of technology by the big players or we could look at the scenarios and identify the issues and workarounds ourselves.

It's not necessarily a case of waiting to be spoon fed anything, but unless you are in a position to experiment with different materials, or have access to wind tunnel, CFD or other aero testing methods, I'm not sure that you can really push any boundaries.

Whilst I get your earlier points about picking the most appropriate parts from different manufacturers to "customise" your wheel to an even greater extent than sourcing all parts from the same manufacturer - I can't believe there is much if any difference between different manufacturers parts (as generally if one company does innovate, it tends to be copied and most manufacturers converge on a similar path), and even if there was, it's incredibly hard to prove any differences.

do you have any idea if there is an advantage to a lighter wheel over a heavier wheel, I don't know myself but there are a lot of weight weenies around so I get the impression lighter is better but I don't know the reason why?

Isn't weight an advantage in a wheel?

My understanding is that lighter wheels are easier to accelerate (e.g. when sprinting or frequent changes of speed), although when at a given speed, there is no difference between a lighter or heavier wheel, in terms of effort required to maintain that speed.

Heavier wheels maintain more energy (e.g. like a flywheel), so on downhill sections or coasting can be an advantage.

The other benefit of less weight, is that it is less weight to actually move (e.g. when hill climbing), but outside of athletes who are already at ideal weights (and therefore it is easier to lose weight from their bikes), for the rest of us, the Rider's weight is normally a bigger factor.


Also, there comes a point where losing weight from the wheel isn't feasible as either the exotic materials required simply are too expensive, or it compromises the strength/durability - hence the move to focusing on aero (that and the advances in CFD etc that have made aero design more viable).


Interesting references:
http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php/reviews/wheels/63-wheel-performance
http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/ComponentAerodynamics.aspx
http://cyclinguphill.com/time-saved-weight-loss-bike/
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/08/news/bike-weight-myth-fast-bikes_339880
 
On a personal note - I've only been riding a few (4-5?) years and only recently (last 24 months or so) have I taken wheels a little more seriously after I encountered some problems with some machine built wheels.

My Giant Defy 1 2015 came with what I am assuming are Giant machine built wheels branded as 'P-R2'. After around 800 miles a couple of my spokes had noticeably slackened enough that my rear wheel developed a noticeable 'click' and buckle. Returning it to the LBS they retensioned/trued them and sent me on my way. Around 150 miles later the rear had developed the same problem, I investigated how to remove wheel buckles and 'solved' the problem myself. I added tension to much of the other spokes to try and alleviate the problem in future as in comparison to another (cheap Carrera) bike I had (which never had any buckles) they didn't seem very tight. In doing so I rounded several of the nipples with a cheap spoke key. At this point I had probably spent 10-20 hours of toying around, truing and retensioning/balancing these Giant wheels. As I commute by bicycle a deal on some Campagnolo Khamsin came up online and multiple people in the road cycling thread had recommended them. I bought a set and considered the ~£120 investment a saving of the time I had spent on the Giant wheels that I wouldn't need to spend again. :rolleyes:

As time went on and I clocked up over 1000 miles on the Khamin's with no issues. They were noticeably smoother and felt more responsive than the Giants, I'm guessing much stiffer rims as the two wheelsets were comparable weights. I became very interested in wheels and invested some funds in the Park Tool spoke tension meter and along with some ebay bought replacement nipples I replaced around 30% of the nipples on my Giant wheels. I used the rear wheel on my Turbo trainer and upon checking it a few weeks afterward I noted a few had lost a little tension. In retensioning the spokes I noted the replaced nipples hardly needed any work. I replaced all the nipples with the ebay ones I'd bought and although the wheel hasn't done more than a few hundred miles on the turbo it has remained true.

My Khamsin wheels have done 3500 miles and only needed a couple of minor buckles removing. They've had replacement bearings as they have dealt with some pretty horrific winter conditions, this wasn't cheap (£40 at my LBS!) so it is something I will do myself in future after I picked up a bearing press in an online deal. I only recently (last week) 'retired' the Khamsin to winter duties after a pair of Shimano RS81 24's were snagged on a pretty unbeatable deal (£512 down to £360, being sold at £260).

As a carbon/alloy combination they are incredibly light (1500g) compared to the Giants or Khamsins (2kg+) and I've noticed quite a difference when riding, their pickup speed is incredible. As for rough roads and carbon absorbing shocks I've noticed only minor difference. Minor enough for it to be no more than a placebo effect of 'new wheels'.

I'm guessing all the wheelsets I've experience with are factory/machine built. I would say that factory built wheels by Giant are useless. For the wheels on a ~£900 RRP bike to be so bad (that a replacement cheap ~£120 Campagnolo set being so vastly superior) they must be made with very cheap components (nipples) which do not hold tension when ridden hard. I would happily own/buy another Campagnolo wheelset (and would probably have bought some Zondas if I didn't come across the deal on the RS81's).

My next step (under way) is doing a complete manual wheel rebuild. I have bought some second hand parts (Roval deep carbon rims) which I will need to change some hubs on (bearings are old and axle/freehub is 10 speed, I need 11). I have a dishing tool but do not have a truing stand, I'll probably pick one up when I get the hubs (still not decided what I want, probably DT Swiss 350's).

In my opinion for 'cheap' wheelsets (<£150) you cannot go wrong with factory/machine built, providing they are from certain manufacturers in my experience Shimano, Campagnolo and probably Fulcrum are ok. I feel that handbuilt below this price range you are venturing a little into unknown parts/quality and possibly cutting a corner somewhere which may not appear until later in the wheelsets life. I may of course be wrong, but I would prefer to buy a wheelset from a well known company shifting large numbers of them (with the associated warranties) as the company is less likely to cut a corner and the cost 'savings' come from bulk ordering components. YMMV of course.

Prices over that I'd say it's totally down to the individual. If you have a particular 'special' requirement - low weight/certain hubs/certain lacings/wide rims, then handbuilt certainly gives you more options. I would expect many of the 'premium branded' £500+ wheelsets (not to mention Enve, Mavic, Cosmic Carbs, Zipp, Rovals etc) to be initially machine laced and then tensioned/balanced by hand. Many of these companies will 'build' and any rims/spokes not reaching a certain machine tension will be binned and replaced. A handbuilt wheelset the builder is less likely to bin a rim and more likely to balance any inequalities from manufacture in the build. This might mean you get a problem in future from it...?! :D

Hope that gives some insight into my experiences. If anything it reinforces many of the opinions in both camps on here. FT's quote sums it up as there's just too many variables:
It's not as simple as one is always worth it over the other
 
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please post up some more info on your wheels please, the different types and why you chose them. I've almost got tunnel vision when I think of a cycle, always roads, disk brakes.

Ok. I have too many to list them all, but here are the highlights.

Road wheels (all my road wheels are factory built):
-Mavic cosmic carbone. Chosen because they came with my bike - wouldn't have chosen them otherwise, but really like them now. Heavy but very aero and fast to ride on flat.
-unbranded chinese carbon. Chosen because they were cheap and light (<1200grams) also wanted tubular tyres for racing.
-FFWD disk wheel (solid carbon disk wheel, rather than disk brake). Chosen because I needed maximum aero for my TT bike.
-4 sets of fulcrum 7s chosen for price and durability. I've never had a broken spoke on any of these wheelsets or ever had one go out of true.
-H plus Son archetype on powertap hub ordered a 32 hole hub and got sent a 24 hole version. Stock levels were very low and the price was good so I was too scared to send it back incase I just got a refund and no replacement. broken a few spokes on it due to the low spoke count. changed from 3cross to 2cross lacing to give the spokes a nicer angle where they meet the rim which helped. handbuilt by my lbs.

MTB wheels:
-Alfine 8speed geared hub on ZTR flow 29er rim chosen for maximum durability. Hub gears need minimal maintenance. Running tubeless to minimise punctures. Handbuilt by myself.
-couple of other fronts and a rear built on ZTR flow 29er rims basic shimano hubs and plain guage spokes for a nice mix of durability and weight. Handbuilt myself.
-basic shimano cx wheels with disk hubs used on my cx bike for training and racing. Factory built and very solid, I give them a hammering and they've never come out of true. Did break a spoke once though.
 
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Have you looked into it much touch? like have you studied the ideas and science behind the wheel, for instance do you have any idea if there is an advantage to a lighter wheel over a heavier wheel, I don't know myself but there are a lot of weight weenies around so I get the impression lighter is better but I don't know the reason why?

Isn't weight an advantage in a wheel?

The weight of a wheel makes a much bigger difference to the weight of your frame due to rotational inertia. This effects your acceleration but has little effect when travelling at a constant speed.
Hence why you'll see lightweight narrow section rims on road bikes for hilly races and deeper, heavier rims being ridden in flatter races.
 
the big wheel manufacturers are making the components that you're handbuilding together anyway....
Sorry Saytan, I don't follow?

Do you mean MAVIC are using Shimano hardware, or HOPE are using ZIPP hardware?

Personally I know the stock offerings don't meet my requirements, I'd have as much chance of buying a prebuilt computer that floats my boat as I would buying a factory wheel that floats my boat. I'm sure I'm not the only individual/fussy customer that would like more control of the sum of the parts?
 
Lighter wheels are useful for climbing hills as the less weight you have to battle gravity going up hill, the less effort/energy you need to expend to maintain a certain speed
Ok I knew that and that makes sense if your against the clock or going really far up hills all days but I thought the point of training uphill was to use gravity as a burden to push your fitness levels? Wouldn't it be better for training purposes to ride a behemoth uphill? . . . months of training like that and you would be Conan, then when you got on your race bike and cycled on a flat you would be leaving your buddies in the dust?

a lighter wheel will aid in rapid changes in speed as a rotating mass stores energy hence the flywheel in your car. So if you are racing a course with lots of turns and bursts of hard acceleration efforts the lighter wheel would be beneficial
I don't have a car and I'm not sure what a flywheel is but I think I follow, you mean going 0-25MPH will be easier on lighter wheels and harder on heavier wheels? . . . I'm not sure of a situation that would be useful apart from tearing off from the traffic lights.

Rotating mass sounds interesting although isn't that more to do with a heavier wheel or is there some other weird science that comes into play?

Conversely a heavier wheel will be harder to accelerate quickly but once up to speed, will be easier to hold that speed on the flats and of course going down hill the extra weight will aid you
Yeah I believe this is true not because I understand the physics but because I am a beast. I mentioned above everyone including pensioners overtakes me on the climbs but going downhill is a different matter. I stop peddling and sit there overtaking everyone, even the weight weener in his aero tuck. You never really hear about fatties being dangerous down hill, I might have to enter a few competitions that are pure downhill . . . I've yet to top 40MPH but 37MPH felt like borderline insanity! :p

I agree about holding the speed on the flats, I think of myself as a juggernaught, lots of energy to gain momentum but once up to 20-25Mph crusing speed its very easy to maintain . . . I wonder if the difference would be noticable? if thats true it would mean a skinny rider on a light carbon cycle finds it harder to maintain a cruising speed compared to blubberboy on his steel steed? Is this to do with the wheel weight and rotating mass?

Is rotating mass effected only by wheel weight or does the overall cycle/rider weight affect it as well?

Personally I'm a fat **** so I use an aero wheel as any weight on my wheels are dwarfed by my waistline but I am working on it :o
Don't worry about it mate, I've gone from 200lbs to 270lbs in two years, thats something like 19.5 stone. Apart from destroying a couple of rear wheels and not looking quite as sexy in me bibs I can't say its made a big difference, although I can't bring myself to do any time trials in this current state! :o

The extra blubber does lend itself quite well to long distance, you just have to balance your output to the right levels and your like an endurance battery
 
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