When are you going fully electric?

Thing about PHEV is you've got
bigmike20vt said:
perhaps..... if so I didn't mean it to be but it's just if the common theory is that IF an EV catches fire it is a pita to put out.... OTOH an ice car is apparently 5x more likely to catch fire than an EV... I guess I was just thinking that maybe adding the 2 together isn't ideal ..... but am sure it's still highly unlikely. But as for PHEVs we have one and it's a good car so I don't have anything against them, it just wouldn't have been my choice... certainly not as the 2nd car runabout anyway.
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Are PHEV's more expensive to service as you've got more to 'service' although given there isn't much to service on an electric motor does it work out pretty much the same as a normal ICE service?
 
OldKitMan said:
Are PHEV's more expensive to service as you've got more to 'service' although given there isn't much to service on an electric motor does it work out pretty much the same as a normal ICE service?
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don't know... I haven't serviced ours yet.
we have a HEVRA garage round the corner from us so at least it won't be BMW prices.
 
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Simon said:
doesn’t matter what car manufacturers make. The market will drive the sales and so maybe going all in on EV might bite companies who have no hedge against not fully EV sales in EU by 2030
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I agree with you and due to the massive depreciation on EV cars (which is great for 2nd hand buyers like me! :D) I can see why people aren't buying an EV. Most have lost 50 percent in 2 to 3 years and others have lost 2/3 their original values! New car EV prices are tanking which must eat into any profits or repair factors baked into the cars.

Plus the fact that hydrogen might be the saving grace for future car engines (I'm not so sure yet, we might need to crack nuclear fusion to make the generation of hydrogen worthwhile) means EV cars could be the next betamax. The public charging infrastructure is already pretty crappy and will be even worse if there's no potential of future customers due to another fuel type becoming mainstream.

I think EV cars could be the future but just not in their current form. Too many unknowns and instability about their long term costs and value etc just puts many people off. Not to mention lots of people live with no off road parking or ability to charge from their own property.
 
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We need to look at the current depreciation levels as a market correction. Just about everything is depreciating in reality.

As for the drive way comment, it’s valid but otoh there’s lots of people with drives that can benefit from an EV. Ignoring list prices of EV’s the ability to fill up at 7.5p/kw at night is simply brilliant, they just need to regulate the road charging side of things.
 
Nemiyen said:
I agree with you and due to the massive depreciation on EV cars (which is great for 2nd hand buyers like me! :D) I can see why people aren't buying an EV. Most have lost 50 percent in 2 to 3 years and others have lost 2/3 their original values! New car EV prices are tanking which must eat into any profits or repair factors baked into the cars.

Plus the fact that hydrogen might be the saving grace for future car engines (I'm not so sure yet, we might need to crack nuclear fusion to make the generation of hydrogen worthwhile) means EV cars could be the next betamax. The public charging infrastructure is already pretty crappy and will be even worse if there's no potential of future customers due to another fuel type becoming mainstream.

I think EV cars could be the future but just not in their current form. Too many unknowns and instability about their long term costs and value etc just puts many people off. Not to mention lots of people live with no off road parking or ability to charge from their own property.
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Manufacturers only care about the new car sale, they not too interested in the prices tank as long as sales stay as projected.
Hydrogen, yeah 10 years from now. heard that how many times?
Have you seen how many hydrogen filling stations there are in the uk? more than 3 times less than 5 years ago.

People can't charge without driveways, how many ICE owners refill on their driveway overnight?

FUD
 
Nemiyen said:
I agree with you and due to the massive depreciation on EV cars (which is great for 2nd hand buyers like me! :D) I can see why people aren't buying an EV. Most have lost 50 percent in 2 to 3 years and others have lost 2/3 their original values! New car EV prices are tanking which must eat into any profits or repair factors baked into the cars.
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It's the same ago old pattern for company cars (except back in the day they were Mondeos and 3 series) - large fleet demand but smaller private demand means high depreciation. Just the natural consequence of the tax benefit

Nemiyen said:
Plus the fact that hydrogen might be the saving grace for future car engines (I'm not so sure yet, we might need to crack nuclear fusion to make the generation of hydrogen worthwhile) means EV cars could be the next betamax. The public charging infrastructure is already pretty crappy and will be even worse if there's no potential of future customers due to another fuel type becoming mainstream.

I think EV cars could be the future but just not in their current form. Too many unknowns and instability about their long term costs and value etc just puts many people off. Not to mention lots of people live with no off road parking or ability to charge from their own property.
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Are you taking about hydrogen fuel cell (ie. it's an EV) or hydrogen ICE?

Either way, how's the infrastructure for that compared to EV infrastructure? 70% of people have EV infrastructure at home (ie. a driveway).

When you talk about unknowns and instability then mention hydrogen as the better solution you clearly have no idea what you're talking about
 
The infrastructure (or lack of) isn't super relevant when hydrogen as a fuel just isn't competitive with electricity. It's retail cost is significantly more than petrol and diesel without any fuel duty added, electricity can be had for 1/3 the price (before tax). Making hydrogen isn't a new technology and is already produced at significant scale and had far better uses than being consumed in a car. Making more to use in EV's is not going to bring the cost down.

Tinders said:
LPG was largely a failure, why do people thing hydrogen will succeed in some sort of ice format, genuine question.
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There is also the NOX issue when burning it.
 
m4rmite said:
Manufacturers only care about the new car sale, they not too interested in the prices tank as long as sales stay as projected.
Hydrogen, yeah 10 years from now. heard that how many times?
Have you seen how many hydrogen filling stations there are in the uk? more than 3 times less than 5 years ago.

People can't charge without driveways, how many ICE owners refill on their driveway overnight?

FUD
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The issue is people aren’t buying new due to the crappy residuals so that kind of goes against your view.

Charging without a driveway is a massive issue. It takes ages and is more than diesel. So no benefit as you pay more for a car that takes longer to fill and costs more! It’s not FUD at all it’s a real blocker to uptake.

Have you got an Ev without access to cheap charging then ?
 
Wow does that Dacia Spring look like absolute crap. Even 1 litre petrol engines are leaving you for dust :cry:

If it has to be electric, brand new and £20K, there are already some examples on Autotrader, Peugeot e-208 and Vauxhall Corsa-E, both much faster than the Dacia.
 
...and yet they have sold something like 120,000 of them in Europe since it was introduced in 2021. If it was that bad, it just wouldn't sell in these sorts of volumes....

New car list prices have little bearing on real prices at the moment. At sub £20k list, I'd expect to be picking up a base model for £15-£16k once the launch rush is over and they settle down into their normal sales rhythm.

Personally I'd buy a used car at that price bracket but some people just want a new car and they buy them because they can. In all honestly, this would make a great little car for my nan (...on the used market in a few years).
 
chanjy said:
It's the same ago old pattern for company cars (except back in the day they were Mondeos and 3 series) - large fleet demand but smaller private demand means high depreciation. Just the natural consequence of the tax benefit


Are you taking about hydrogen fuel cell (ie. it's an EV) or hydrogen ICE?

Either way, how's the infrastructure for that compared to EV infrastructure? 70% of people have EV infrastructure at home (ie. a driveway).

When you talk about unknowns and instability then mention hydrogen as the better solution you clearly have no idea what you're talking about
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I was meaning hydrogen as an ICE option, we don't want mini nukes going off everytime there's a car accident!

And I didn't even say hydrogen is the better solution, just that it's gaining traction as an alternative option which is causing more apprehension for EV adoption.

I think the best options are going to be solid state batteries closely followed by nuclear fusion reaction plants meaning we have great battery technology and unlimited energy. The batteries could be much smaller and we could charge in 5 minutes instead of about 30 minutes or so.
 
Nemiyen said:
I was meaning hydrogen as an ICE option, we don't want mini nukes going off everytime there's a car accident!

And I didn't even say hydrogen is the better solution, just that it's gaining traction as an alternative option which is causing more apprehension for EV adoption.

I think the best options are going to be solid state batteries closely followed by nuclear fusion reaction plants meaning we have great battery technology and unlimited energy. The batteries could be much smaller and we could charge in 5 minutes instead of about 30 minutes or so.
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Errrm what’s the different? Hydrogen fuel cell or engine still have a big tank.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
Errrm what’s the different? Hydrogen fuel cell or engine still have a big tank.
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Someone smarter than me will have the answer but it's like saying all nuclear power is the same. But there's a massive difference between fusion and fission. The way the hydrogen is stored changes and hydrogen in a fuel cell uses chemicals that go boom like the lithium batteries do now. Unless we go to a solid state hydrogen fuel cell. Google has this:

"While both technologies use hydrogen, they do so differently. Hydrogen combustion engines burn hydrogen, producing power through combustion, like conventional engines. Fuel cells, on the other hand, use a chemical process to convert hydrogen into electricity."
 
Nemiyen said:
I was meaning hydrogen as an ICE option, we don't want mini nukes going off everytime there's a car accident!

And I didn't even say hydrogen is the better solution, just that it's gaining traction as an alternative option which is causing more apprehension for EV adoption.
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It’s not gaining traction, literally the opposite is happening. There used to be 15 hydrogen filling stations in the U.K., there are now 3 and the same divestment is being replicated across the world.

Nemiyen said:
I think the best options are going to be solid state batteries closely followed by nuclear fusion reaction plants meaning we have great battery technology and unlimited energy. The batteries could be much smaller and we could charge in 5 minutes instead of about 30 minutes or so.
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Solid state is not the be all and end all. It is very much a catch all term which refers a wide range of chemistries which make up ‘solid state’ and ‘semi solid state’ batteries. Some promise these amazing characteristics like charging in a few minutes at very high power, others are only incrementally better than we have now. The ones going into mass production are the latter not the former.

It’s easy to make one cell in a lab, building millions of them is a whole different ball game. Their issue is that much cheaper chemistries like LFP are already dense enough and charge fast enough for the vast majority of applications and only getting better.

Nemiyen said:
Someone smarter than me will have the answer
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This is why you should do the reading before forming an opinion.

The dangerous bit of a hydrogen powered car, fuel cell or combustion is the hydrogen itself. How it’s used doesn’t change that.

Nemiyen said:
The way the hydrogen is stored changes and hydrogen in a fuel cell uses chemicals that go boom like the lithium batteries do now. Unless we go to a solid state hydrogen fuel cell. Google has this:

"While both technologies use hydrogen, they do so differently. Hydrogen combustion engines burn hydrogen, producing power through combustion, like conventional engines. Fuel cells, on the other hand, use a chemical process to convert hydrogen into electricity."
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Where have you read that fuel cells go boom like batteries do?

Batteries don’t go boom, they actually burn very slowly if they catch fire. Petrol actually goes boom.

Car fires are actually tracked quite closely and the evidence currently suggests battery electric cars are a lot less likely to catch fire than an a standard combustion car.

I doubt there is any data on hydrogen cars because there is so few of them but if one did catch fire it would have been front page news for a week.
 
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