You realise this is because Chinese state directly subsidises most of these state owned companies. That’s the kind of business practices totalitarianism does to undermine the economy of their enemies. Like it or not China is a belligerent nation and aren’t just trying to sell us poor European’s nice cheap cars.
When are you going fully electric?
- Thread starter Ricochet J
- Start date
You realise this is because Chinese state directly subsidises most of these state owned companies. That’s the kind of business practices totalitarianism does to undermine the economy of their enemies. Like it or not China is a belligerent nation and aren’t just trying to sell us poor European’s nice cheap cars.
But we will quite happily buy chemicals and all sorts of other stuff without tariffs?
You’re not really getting it are you.
The car industry is many thousands of jobs. If we suddenly stop making them in Europe it kills economies. Chemicals just come out of a refinery tap
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Chemicals just come out of a refinery tap?
Are you for real?
Oh you took it literally.
Which exact chemicals are we buying from china then if we want to get in the specifics ?
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$1.5t worth in 2017
China’s chemical industry: New strategies for a new era
China looks set to remain the fastest-growing major chemical market, but important changes are under way. To succeed in this next stage of development, China's chemical industry will need to embrace a new set of strategies.
It’s shocking really, imagine the EU are trying to protect their manufacturing industry is seen as a bad thing. We have over the years become over reliant on key resource supplies from belligerent nations who do not have our best interests remotely at heart.
I wish the successive UK governments had done more to keep key manufacturing and specialist jobs here in the UK. Instead they let rampant capitalism drive policy and move highly skilled jobs overseas.
Weak western governments who naively thought China and Russia were no longer a threat to other sovereign nations.
I like the fact the MG4 has disrupted the market, but I can see how Chinese owned and heavily subsidised industries are not undercutting local products with honourable intentions.
I wish the successive UK governments had done more to keep key manufacturing and specialist jobs here in the UK. Instead they let rampant capitalism drive policy and move highly skilled jobs overseas.
Weak western governments who naively thought China and Russia were no longer a threat to other sovereign nations.
I like the fact the MG4 has disrupted the market, but I can see how Chinese owned and heavily subsidised industries are not undercutting local products with honourable intentions.
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Soldato
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Correct, cos we don’t make those and they aren’t being subsidised massively.
Europe chemicals push for protection from China - Chemical Industry Journal
A growing chorus of industry voices is calling for more action by the European Union to prevent a flood of cheap imported chemicals from China which could threaten its future viability. From 2020-2024 an unprecedented wave of new projects has been starting up in China, and with the country’s...
www.chemicalindustryjournal.co.uk
Soldato
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- Shakespeare’s County
Oh the same issue is present and you played devil advocate with yourself?
Just so we all know, subsidised is different to cheap? Yeah.
Just so we all know, subsidised is different to cheap? Yeah.
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Europe chemicals push for protection from China - Chemical Industry Journal
A growing chorus of industry voices is calling for more action by the European Union to prevent a flood of cheap imported chemicals from China which could threaten its future viability. From 2020-2024 an unprecedented wave of new projects has been starting up in China, and with the country’s...
Then expect those to end up sanctioned as well. Like it or not China is not the friend of democratic nations and along with Russia has been attempting to undermine our governments and our industry for decades. Look at how they stole Western car designs to build for the cheap internal markets. This is not innovation, it is a sign of how China operate outside international laws.
An item made in China to the same standards as a contemporary western made product, is not actually significantly cheaper to build. It is the high subsidisation from the state owned government that makes it cheaper. That is what China are doing to undermine the unsubsidised European car makers. If Germany were to heavily subsidise VAG and you could buy their cars 25% cheaper it would be great as a consumer short term. But how long do you think the UK and rest of Europe would accept this when their car plants start to fold and the workforce is impacted?
As @Jonnycoupe posted, subsidised is not the same as cheap. There are serious strings attached that go far beyond how it affects your wallet.
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3 years ago vw dropped the price of the id 3 by £2.5k
'Major' price cut for VW ID.3 means more EVs eligible for plug-in grant
Volkswagen has reduced prices of its ID.3 electric car range to ensure more versions are eligible for the £2,500 Plug-in Car Grant
www.motoringresearch.com
VW Cuts ID Prices In Europe And Introduces New Entry-Level Versions | Carscoops
In some markets, VW has reduced prices to ensure its ID models are eligible for government incentives
www.carscoops.com
And yesterday by £3k.
So maybe not government subsidies but over priced to start with?
Sadly it's taking financial/sales losses to be the motivator of offering competitive prices to the consumer, rather than trying to stay ahead of the game.
Imagine if China didn't sell any evs outside of their own market, what prices do you think vw, ford and the like would be charging?
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They do make in ICE china. So not sure why it’s a EV thing3 years ago vw dropped the price of the id 3 by £2.5k
Earlier in the year vw subsidised the ev plug in grants that were withdrawn / dropped prices to meet the threshold around some eu countries.'Major' price cut for VW ID.3 means more EVs eligible for plug-in grant
Volkswagen has reduced prices of its ID.3 electric car range to ensure more versions are eligible for the £2,500 Plug-in Car Grant
VW Cuts ID Prices In Europe And Introduces New Entry-Level Versions | Carscoops
In some markets, VW has reduced prices to ensure its ID models are eligible for government incentives
And yesterday by £3k.
So maybe not government subsidies but over priced to start with?
Sadly it's taking financial/sales losses to be the motivator of offering competitive prices to the consumer, rather than trying to stay ahead of the game.
Imagine if China didn't sell any evs outside of their own market, what prices do you think vw, ford and the like would be charging?
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I am vehemently against the uprising of China's dominance in manufacturing, their government, human rights issues, and general crapness. However, I am also against the excuses that a tariff that size is not disproportionate due to how slow the EU market is to respond to competition that they have had a hand in building.
We know we need battery factories to complete, they are even off the drawing board in the UK yet or already went bust. China did over 1TWh in 2023, the entire EU, UK and US combined did 100GWh, 1/10 of the amount, so don't tell me they aren't built for a lower cost, even without help/subsidies.
Slap as many tariffs on as you like, China will sell cars to the rest of the world instead and continue to grow and dominate, and they'll stop the gravy train for west's car makers who used China as growth market and they'll make huge cut backs and losses anyhow, already happened at VW, and will only get worse. There'll be massive job losses, just like when the ship yards closed, and the coal mines in the UK, and they'll just have to figure something else out, or perhaps they'll be given a rescue package by the government, which would be ironic.
We know we need battery factories to complete, they are even off the drawing board in the UK yet or already went bust. China did over 1TWh in 2023, the entire EU, UK and US combined did 100GWh, 1/10 of the amount, so don't tell me they aren't built for a lower cost, even without help/subsidies.
Slap as many tariffs on as you like, China will sell cars to the rest of the world instead and continue to grow and dominate, and they'll stop the gravy train for west's car makers who used China as growth market and they'll make huge cut backs and losses anyhow, already happened at VW, and will only get worse. There'll be massive job losses, just like when the ship yards closed, and the coal mines in the UK, and they'll just have to figure something else out, or perhaps they'll be given a rescue package by the government, which would be ironic.
Yeah this poster is conflating market forces and demand with massive foreign government subsidies that create an unfair advantage and puts the domestic economy at risk.
Let me put it this way. If a European company spends £100 to make a widget and they can sell that widget for £120, then they make a profit. Now a Chinese state owned company can make that same widget for £90 and sell it for £110 to undercut the European company. The European company still has some margin to compete.
But if the Chinese state subsidises the Chinese widget maker by £30 per widget and they start selling them for £70, they still make a profit. Obviously the European company cannot compete and goes of business.
This only works short term to help gain market share, but is unsustainable longer term due to raising debts. It’s one of the reasons the Chinese economy is in decline.
If that European widget maker generates 25% of the local economy with jobs and wages, then it drives economic growth and stability for your region. So that European widget maker going out of business is an objectively terrible idea.
So just looking at your wallet is blinkered and short sighted for the local economy and for society as a whole. We did this decades ago when successive UK governments pushed to make the UK a service economy and decimated the manufacturing sector.
The EU obviously aren’t that short sighted and are protecting their and their populations interests.
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Man of Honour
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For those with Intelligent Go.
I've noticed that Octopus recommend plugging your charger in at 5pm and then having an off time up to 11am then Intelligent Go will work out when they can give you cheap charging.
Have you ever noticed your car charging at the cheap rate during the evening or does it always kick in at 11.30pm?
I've noticed that Octopus recommend plugging your charger in at 5pm and then having an off time up to 11am then Intelligent Go will work out when they can give you cheap charging.
Have you ever noticed your car charging at the cheap rate during the evening or does it always kick in at 11.30pm?
I have had cheep rate start at 10pm some times. Mine is controlled by the car API (Tesla model 3).
I plug in, manually stop charge and forget about it. Between 1 and 20 minutes later I get a charging plan.
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Man of Honour
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We're thinking about the Ohme Home Pro because we granny charge at the moment and we could still do that on Octopus Go but set it for 12.30am.
I've explained to the wife that when she came in Friday it needed 7 hours to charge which would be over the 5 hours of cheap rate.
Anyway she's agreed to the EV charger and Intelligent Go on Nov 1st, we can't change until then or lose £150 from our current provider.
I presume Octopus will fit us a charger without being on them yet.
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