When are you going fully electric?

[Simon]

Really?

When you've got 89kwh of useable power in a battery , it doesn't make much difference if you use 3kwh heating a car up (the initial warm up being the energy biggest hit)
When you've got 17kwh of useable power, it makes a big difference if you use 3kwh on heat.

You are assuming no heat loss when driving. Hence my point about bigger cars having more glass…

 

[FerretBoy]

Pulling a caravan with an EV roughly halves the range and makes charging harder.

I don't think the Model 3 can pull anything, the bar was mainly for bike racks etc. you would need to check.

 

[Brando]

Rivian did some significant towing development, it would be interesting to see how they fair as tow vehicles.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

You are assuming no heat loss when driving. Hence my point about bigger cars having more glass…

I've no idea what you're on about with glass and big cars.

Regarding battery size, the bigger your 'fuel tank' the less you care about minor inefficiencies. As someone with EVs at either end of the spectrum - I should know.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

The only reason I considered the Y is the boot space due to having a dog and a caravan based in Yorkshire so I take a load of stuff with me when we go away.

However, I've just priced up roof rails and a roof box for a M3. That may be a solution to the lack of M3 space.

Not sure if you are towing but Model 3 will only tow 1000kg, Model Y is 1600kg. Model Y can be retrofitted with a towbar, the old model 3 can’t, its factory only. Not sure on the new model - ask Tesla.

Model Y summer towing range is 145-150 miles. I’ve got 130 with a caravan on the back of my Y but what was in terrible winter weather.

A roof box will probably drop 15-20% off a 3’s range. If you go for the LR that should be an issue, you are still looking at ~4 hours driving before needing to charge. Obviously the faster you go, the bigger the impact.

 

[Simon]

I've no idea what you're on about, big cars?

Cars still need energy to stay warm once warmed up. The bigger car was the comment about how quickly heat is lost through glass that was all. As soon as you turn the heat off the car will cool down quickly.

Hence when driving the heat loss means you will always be pulling energy to keep the car warm. So I dispute you point about bigger batteries being less effected. I then tried to make a point that bigger battery cars (generally) are bigger so they actually lose more heat. So maybe smaller cars are less impacted by heating (and generally they have smaller batteries ). So just a challenge your point about bigger batteries being less impacted by range

Amazed I had to explain that really

 

[Hawk Tuah]

Amazed I had to explain that really

What I mean is, nobody is debating this. You've been arguing with yourself.

Cars still need energy to stay warm once warmed up.

Sure, but a lot goes to actually getting warm in the first place - and this is where the battery capacity matters.

The bigger car was the comment about how quickly heat is lost through glass that was all.

A tiny insignificant amount that's barely worth mentioning (ignoring the Audi's double glazing). But here we are.

So just a challenge your point about bigger batteries being less impacted by range

If you want to rework it like that, I'm sure car size does have some effect, bigger car, more to heat. Bigger battery doesn't nessecarily mean bigger car though.

I'm comparing cars within my own experience, and the battery size is a far more critical factor than the size of the car.

 

[Simon]

Oh you said bigger batteries aren’t impacted by heating as much. Glad we agree then

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Double glazing isnt like a house Its just for sound.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

I'm not the one arguing the significance of glass on efficiency.

 

[AnastieByte]

Not sure if you are towing but Model 3 will only tow 1000kg, Model Y is 1600kg. Model Y can be retrofitted with a towbar, the old model 3 can’t, its factory only. Not sure on the new model - ask Tesla.

Model Y summer towing range is 145-150 miles. I’ve got 130 with a caravan on the back of my Y but what was in terrible winter weather.

A roof box will probably drop 15-20% off a 3’s range. If you go for the LR that should be an issue, you are still looking at ~4 hours driving before needing to charge. Obviously the faster you go, the bigger the impact.

Thanks for this. No I don't tow anymore the caravan is on a store and stay site. The tow bar will come in handy for my bike rack though.

 

[Simon]

I'm not the one arguing the significance of glass on efficiency.

Q dot is your enemy. The rest you have made up some argument because you realise 3kwh to warm up a car is unrealistic

 

[Hawk Tuah]

You're right. Using 15% of a battery to get a car up to temperature is no different to using 2%. No difference at all.

 

[Simon]

You're right. Using 15% of a battery to get a car up to temperature is no different to using 2%.

Now you are just making up numbers. How long does it take to warm up a car ? even 20 mins would need a 9kW to get this 3kWh you mention. It’s more like 5kW for 5 mins max = 0.45kWh

In contrast the Kia energy display is quite interesting. 15kW to maintain speed and 1.4kW to keep cabin at 21C in 2c ambient.

Not really sure why you are going on about it still like I have said something incorrect. I still challenge your post saying range is less impacted by a bigger battery. If you do 3kWh like you say that’s still 9-12miles less range regardless if its 30 or 120kWh battery

You seem to be talking of an offset. The reality is the heating is a constant loss based on how quick that heat is lost(depends on car) Turn off the heating in an Ev on a 0C motorway and the cabin temps drop very quickly. That’s heat loss for you

 

[Hawk Tuah]

Now you are just making up numbers.

Not making anything up. I have two EVs. Warming up the Leaf on a frosty day can easily take 15% of it's battery. Warming up the Q8 would be nearer 2%.

I still challenge your post saying range is less impacted by a bigger battery.

Proportionally, yes.

If you have a car with a massive battery, having an inefficient heater is a less signficant factor.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

The reality is the heating is a constant loss based on how quick that heat is lost(depends on car)

Energy used on heating is not linear. It's heavily weighted to the first part of your journey. Only once the car has warmed up will it be constant.

 

[Simon]

I give up, it’s clear you are confusing what you experience as fact versus physics. By your logic a Q8 has a battery 7.5 times the size of a leaf.

And why are you going on about warming up. Obviously we then have the effect of a 1 mile trip versus a 200 mile trip.

 

[Simon]

Not making anything up. I have two EVs. Warming up the Leaf on a frosty day can easily take 15% of it's battery. Warming up the Q8 would be nearer 2%.

Proportionally, yes.

If you have a car with a massive battery, having an inefficient heater is a less signficant factor.

I’m labouring this as your bigger battery is less impacted is so wrong. It makes no difference to the lost kWh and therefore miles only % drop. You are confusing the and not sure why you don’t understand what I am saying.

Yes obviously this 3kwh (more like 0.5) is less % of a bigger battery. Still wondering where you get 3kwh from.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

I get the feeling we're not going to agree on this one so let's just leave it there.

 

[Simon]

Well no as you haven’t helped me understand how you got to this.
Why is one car using 2% and the other 15%. And 3kWh of warm up heat ?