When are you going fully electric?

[Haggisman]

There's the fuel saving to take into account.

If like me you are going to be saving £100 a month on fuel. That's an extra £100 per month that can go to fund the car.

Others will save significantly more as we only do a combined 9k a year across 2 cars.

So if I'm willing to spend say £200 a month on a car that can now become £300 a month for an electric car.

Bare in mind electric cars have less moving parts, nothing really needs replacing or repairing bar tyres.

Take those savings into accounts then people can probably put an extra £150 minimum on top of their normal car budget. Likely a lot more.

I agree with you at the moment, however I would be surprised if those low running costs remain once EV becomes the norm rather than than a small percentage.

Why? Because tax.

Say you have an average MPG of 40 in your petrol car, at 113.5p/l, that's £5.15/gal = ~13p/mile

However, a quick google (https://www.racfoundation.org/data/uk-daily-fuel-table-with-breakdown) suggests that of that 113.5p, only ~37p is actually the cost of the fuel + delivery/distribution/retail, the remaining ~77p is all tax.

Using that figure, your actual fuel costs are more like 37p/l = £1.68/gal = ~4p/mile, which is basically the same as running an EV.

The government are clearly not going to be happy about losing that ~9p mile in tax, considering it accounts for a total of ~28bn/year.

At some point EV mileage is going to be hit with equivalent levels of taxation* - it's inevitable - at which point the above is no longer going to be true (although by this point, hopefully EVs will be at price parity with ICE).

 

[Joe T]

At some point EV mileage is going to be hit with equivalent levels of taxation* - it's inevitable - at which point the above is no longer going to be true (although by this point, hopefully EVs will be at price parity with ICE).

Overall the government will not encourage people out of EV into ICE. The sums will still add up to make it beneficial to go EV.

 

[Russinating]

At some point EV mileage is going to be hit with equivalent levels of taxation* - it's inevitable - at which point the above is no longer going to be true (although by this point, hopefully EVs will be at price parity with ICE).

Can only be based on purchase price or miles (taxed at point of MOT, for example), since you can charge a car up via a 3-pin socket there's no way to tax it separately to general household electricity.

Anyone that owns a company or has some sort of co car scheme is laughing all the way to the bank.

*waves*

 

[Haggisman]

Overall the government will not encourage people out of EV into ICE. The sums will still add up to make it beneficial to go EV. So there will be no "less people willing to jump from there petrol and diesel cars".

You think the government are going to just let that £28bn disappear?

There's no reason why they can't both increase tax on EV and ICE at the same time, to the point where an EV has similar running costs (due to tax) as an ICE has today, whilst an ICE costs significantly more.

Whether that's pay per mile (the fairest option IMO), VED, or on purchase price remains to be seen, but yes, I agree with @Russinating that there's no realistic way to stick it on top of charging costs.

 

[Pottsey]

How is this the case? An ICE can be recharged in seconds giving up to 700 miles range in the process. Once filled it generates its own power.

For the driver, EV will never be as convenient as this, therefore if drivers are to be incentivised to reduce emissions through the use of an EV it has to be made fiscally beneficial - which is why there is no company car tax on pure EV.

This is why no government will make EV usage as expensive as ice usage, because people just won't want one if they do that.

From a person time point of view refilling an ICE takes x10 longer then an EV. With an EV its way more convenient and would save me a massive amount of time for the type of driving I do. Sure if you are doing 150+ mile trips a ICE is more convenient. But like most people I do not do that so an EV is massively more convenient saving both a large amount of time and money. I don't see how you can remotely say an ICE is more convenient for people like me who only do short trips.

 

[Joe T]

You think the government are going to just let that £28bn disappear?

No, but they will not have a policy whereby they ban the sale of ICE vehicles, and yet fiscal policies encourage people from EV to ICE. Even the government is not that illogical.

There's no reason why they can't both increase tax on EV and ICE at the same time, to the point where an EV has similar running costs (due to tax) as an ICE has today, whilst an ICE costs significantly more.

Whether that's pay per mile (the fairest option IMO), VED, or on purchase price remains to be seen, but yes, I agree with @Russinating that there's no realistic way to stick it on top of charging costs.

Exactly.

It's possible, for example, that a road pricing scheme is introduced that applies equally (or semi-equally, at least) to ICE and EV. And ICE fuel taxes stay in place as well. That would easily do the trick.

 

[jamoor]

No, but they will not have a policy whereby they ban the sale of ICE vehicles, and yet fiscal policies encourage people from EV to ICE. Even the government is not that illogical.



Exactly.

It's possible, for example, that a road pricing scheme is introduced that applies equally (or semi-equally, at least) to ICE and EV. And ICE fuel taxes stay in place as well. That would easily do the trick.

It will be taxed in the future to make up the shortfall but I say get in now while the going is good.

 

[[TW]Fox]

people like me who only do short trips.

If you hardly use a car is spending 30 thousand quid on an EV justifiable?

 

[jamoor]

If you hardly use a car is spending 30 thousand quid on an EV justifiable?

It is if it pays for itself through tax savings compared to a gas guzzler.

you’re too focused on the purchase price. I could make mine work compared to a used 20mpg car

 

[Russinating]

It will be taxed in the future to make up the shortfall but I say get in now while the going is good.

And it is gooood (he says twisting his moustache whilst swirling a single malt). My current equivalent mpg is circa 5,000.

 

[[TW]Fox]

It is if it pays for itself

How will it do that if he barely drives it anywhere anyway?

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I agree with you at the moment, however I would be surprised if those low running costs remain once EV becomes the norm rather than than a small percentage.

Why? Because tax.

Say you have an average MPG of 40 in your petrol car, at 113.5p/l, that's £5.15/gal = ~13p/mile

However, a quick google (https://www.racfoundation.org/data/uk-daily-fuel-table-with-breakdown) suggests that of that 113.5p, only ~37p is actually the cost of the fuel + delivery/distribution/retail, the remaining ~77p is all tax.

Using that figure, your actual fuel costs are more like 37p/l = £1.68/gal = ~4p/mile, which is basically the same as running an EV.

The government are clearly not going to be happy about losing that ~9p mile in tax, considering it accounts for a total of ~28bn/year.

At some point EV mileage is going to be hit with equivalent levels of taxation* - it's inevitable - at which point the above is no longer going to be true (although by this point, hopefully EVs will be at price parity with ICE).

So you are worried about tax that isn't in place and there are no current plans to put in place?

First of all its electricity which goes into your home. They cannot differentiate from TV or car.

Then you also have the fact cars can be clocked. So if they do it on a mileage basis. Everyone will just start clocking their cars.

You are talking hypothetical taxes for your argument.

Well hypothetically aliens could come here and give us teleporters which means you can teleport wherever you want instantly therefore no need for cars.

There is no plan to tax electric vehicles. I should know as I'm at the forefront of taxation on them.

The only thing I have heard about is a certain major oil company giving all their staff a fleet of vehicles and wanting to recover the cost of charging them and re imbursing employees who charge them at home and whether they should then be subject to 20% business rate of a supply of electricity rather than a 5% home domestic use. However the company would then need to install a seperate meter just for the car charger.

The cost of which would outstrip any savings they are trying to pass on. So it would be smarter if they just gave their employees an extra £50 a month in their salary instead. However that is their decision to make.

 

[Pottsey]

If you hardly use a car is spending 30 thousand quid on an EV justifiable?

Most likely I would spend £10k to £20k and at that price the benefits and convenience outweigh going ICE. Its not just about money saving its about the time saved and EV being way more convenient. Why waste money going for a less convenient ICE car?

 

[Haggisman]

So you are worried about tax that isn't in place and there are no current plans to put in place?

Who said anything about being worried?

First of all its electricity which goes into your home. They cannot differentiate from TV or car.

Absolutely, I'm glad you agree with what I said about this earlier.

You are talking hypothetical taxes for your argument.

I'm not sure you know what my argument even is, considering you're either addressing things I've never actually said, or agreeing with things I've posted

Well hypothetically aliens could come here and give us teleporters which means you can teleport wherever you want instantly therefore no need for cars.

An excellent reductio ad absurdum which serves to do nothing except undermine any valid points you may actually have made.

We currently tax cars, therefore it doesn't exactly take a stretch of the imagination to expect that we will find a different way of taxing cars when the current method is no longer applicable.

Teleporters from aliens on the other hand. Whilst I've personally never seen any evidence that this is likely to happen, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong if you would like to post your sources that this is imminent?

There is no plan to tax electric vehicles. I should know as I'm at the forefront of taxation on them.

I didn't say it was going to happen soon - we still have 15 years until no more ICE cars are allowed to be sold, so at least 20-25 until the vast majority are off the road. That's a very long time for tax changes to be made, and quite frankly, I find your alien teleporter suggestion to be more likely to occur than the government happily waving goodbye to a 28bn/year tax revenue stream.

 

[jamoor]

If you hardly use a car is spending 30 thousand quid on an EV justifiable?

Maybe he values the fringe benefits? Quieter, better to drive, less time wasted on maintenance etc?
There’s very little point in spending thousands on an ice car that’s more of the same.

 

[Toothy1911]

I'd be quite tempted with a city roadster / sports car, with small range. Like the Honda e, but in the concept coupe style.
But would keep my "normal" car for long journeys.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Who said anything about being worried?



Absolutely, I'm glad you agree with what I said about this earlier.




I'm not sure you know what my argument even is, considering you're either addressing things I've never actually said, or agreeing with things I've posted



An excellent reductio ad absurdum which serves to do nothing except undermine any valid points you may actually have made.

We currently tax cars, therefore it doesn't exactly take a stretch of the imagination to expect that we will find a different way of taxing cars when the current method is no longer applicable.

Teleporters from aliens on the other hand. Whilst I've personally never seen any evidence that this is likely to happen, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong if you would like to post your sources that this is imminent?



I didn't say it was going to happen soon - we still have 15 years until no more ICE cars are allowed to be sold, so at least 20-25 until the vast majority are off the road. That's a very long time for tax changes to be made, and quite frankly, I find your alien teleporter suggestion to be more likely to occur than the government happily waving goodbye to a 28bn/year tax revenue stream.

Well the government has just reduced vat for a sector.

It also has plans to reduce vat on tampons.

So yes the givernment is happy to wave bye bye to billions.

That doesn't mean that they will then tax the replacement or substitute.

They could just raise income tax.

Therefore no point saying they are going to tax electric vehicles when there is no plan in place to do so.

They can raise taxes from elsewhere. They also reduced stamp duty, etc.

The government doesn't need to replace the lost revenue from fuel duty by adding it to ev's. They can simply just add it elsewhere than trying to implement a whole new system which needs administration.

They will likely look to gain tax elsewhere like raise vat to 25%, or raise income tax or raise vat on electricity to 20% for domestic use.

They won't tax vehicles on mileage it's a minefield in terms of administration.

 

[[TW]Fox]

less time wasted on maintenance etc?

Yea that dropping the car off for a service once every 2 years is such a nuisance.

 

[jpaul]

just because there aren't as many EV moving parts , the failure mechanisms are elsewhere, thermal cycling, insulation winding degradation, semiconductor/chip wear electromigration, and, bugs in the software implementing the control ... which all present their own challenges.
(there must be folks working on clocking ev's like the M3, and, if your car is online and calling Mr Musk, could be difficult to disguise, albeit he supports private liberty)
... have leafs had any drivetrain issues ? there is no substitute for real miles.

Interesting usa lost petrol tax revenue to ev's considered to be $250M , (OK - their tax rates), and the cost of the uk 0 bik tax break £100M

 

[jamoor]

Yea that dropping the car off for a service once every 2 years is such a nuisance.

And paying money for the privilege!