When are you going fully electric?

[chaparral]

Looks like my government is now looking at ways to TAX electric cars & petrol/diesel cars by the mileage they do

https://gsy.bailiwickexpress.com/gs...ake-system-fairer-no-extra-cost/#.XO9LuknsYpU
https://gsy.bailiwickexpress.com/gsy/news/electric-cars/#.XO9KCEnsYpU

Next month, Deputy Gavin St Pier's committee will put to the States that, rather than taxing motorists through fuel duty, local vehicles should be taxed in accordance with how many miles they cover.

With the number of electric vehicles in the island growing rapidly, resulting in a continuous decrease in fuel consumption, they are likely to be included in the new scheme.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

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Please spend at least 3 minutes actually fact checking your opinion before posting, it’s all been debunked multiple times even in this thread. Hell even the conservatives are pushing electric so talking about the greens being dreamers is just nonsense.

Even if emissions remained the same (which they will not, far from it) you are literally arguing to have those emissions and particulates pumped directly into your lungs instead of at the top of tall chimney stacks in the middle of nowhere. Think about it...

Looks like my government is now looking at ways to TAX electric cars & petrol/diesel cars by the mileage they do

‘Car’ based taxes will need to be reformed given they will no longer be able to tax the fuel. A per mile based tax is a viable solution and it’s generally accepted that’s what fuel duty achieves along with taxing those who have high emission vehicles more.

I am expecting ANPR based tolls to become far more common.

 

[4K8KW10]

The Greens are just dreaming, the infrastructure over the last 100 years has slowly brought petrol and diesel pumps (relatively) to your doorstep. High rise to manor house. The work, potential for abuse, and expense of bringing high amperage charging points to your doorstep, which makes electrically fuelled vehicles practical, is decades away, and currently (excuse the pun) risible. Plus you just move the fuel source from the pumps to the national grid, and the environmental impact of making and disposing of current vehicle battery technology is still filthy. It remains an, overall still dirty, fuel of the committed dreamers, whereas the real issue is over population and impractical aspirations of the working man, fuelled by the internet and a ludicrous aim of financial and social equality. The next thing will be the criminals tapping in to publicly funded electrical sources illegally to "fuel" their vehicles. Using red diesel will then become totally passée. Expect to trip over a cable to the nearest opened lamp post base pretty soon... People get riled queuing behind customers at a conventional fuel station whilst they buy fizzy dringks, fags and crisps, let alone awaiting someone to charge their car at a charging point for ages en route to their (changeable in reality) destination.

I just don't think so.
First of all, there should have been parallel development of all types of cars from the very beginning 100 and more years ago.
I really don't understand why everyone is moaning when we actually have no choice. All is about propaganda and lies by the governments which are sponsored by the oil extractors and automotive manufacturers which also I don't understand what exactly they are moaning about. For them it doesn't really matter if they gonna make electric motors or any other type for that matter.

One morning we will wake up and the oil will be depleted. Do you comprehend this or do you expect a miracle and the dirty oil to never finish?

You can always move to LPG/natural gas car, if you don't want hydrogen.
Electric will be developed and once more reneweable sources join the grid, it will become much better.

Coal is also not a renewable energy source.

The future is in the hydrogen or any other chemical element that is widely present around us.

 

[adolf hamster]

Please spend at least 3 minutes actually fact checking your opinion before posting, it’s all been debunked multiple times even in this thread. Hell even the conservatives are pushing electric so talking about the greens being dreamers is just nonsense.

politicians pushing something does not mean it's something that makes logical sense, just means it's something they think will win them points.

as for fact checking, it's pretty bloody obvious if you spend more than 20s in the rural areas of this country that the infrastructure isn't ready for it.

and we haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the issues with the cars themselves.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

as for fact checking, it's pretty bloody obvious if you spend more than 20s in the rural areas of this country that the infrastructure isn't ready for it.

Go on then, I’ll bite tell me why the grid can’t take it given the National Grid have said multiple times they have the transition to EVs well in hand. Please state some facts to substantiate your claims rather than your opinion.

 

[adolf hamster]

Go on then, I’ll bite tell me why the grid can’t take it given the National Grid have said multiple times they have the transition to EVs well in hand. Please state some facts to substantiate your claims rather than your opinion.

all right.

lets start by assuming for the sake of convenience everyone's average battery capacity is ~60kwh (the longer range version of the nissan leaf)

to charge that overnight (forget fast chargers, we'll be nice and say it takes 12hrs to charge from empty to full) you'll be drawing 5kw from the charger.

so, lets just forget tower blocks, and houses without driveways and assume everyone has a 5kw charger available to them to do this.

doing a straight swap from IC to electric we'll assume we have ~38million cars on the roads (ie the number of cars doesn't increase from current levels), lets be super generous here and call half of those garage queens so 19million cars used daily (RAC has 15 million as the figure for daily commuters, so including non-workers and leisure use we're not too far off)

so, 19 million cars at 5kw each is 95Gw so that's our worst-case peak load. realistically not everyone's going to be charging at the same time but given we're talking a few hours to charge there's going to be a hell of a lot of overlap at the start of the night when people plug their car in and hit the hay.

given in 2014 the average power demand for electricity was 34Gw, we're gonna need 20 more stations on the scale of hinkley point c to meet that.

and that's just the macro scale, on the more local scale there are plenty of places where a hamlet of 10 cars dropping a 50kw load on the grid is going to kill it.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

Probably not in my lifetime, even though France is possibly the only European nation which actually can generate enough electricity to cope with the demand causing by banning ICEs in privately owned vehicles. Having an 18kVA feed to my property means I could certainly run a couple for fast-charge points without issue.

Can’t see the rural French ditching their diesels without protests that would make the Gilet Jaune movement look like someone tutting in the till queue in Waitrose.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Interesting views on petrol pumps as in reality the density has been steadily dropping since iirc the 80s, if you did it by population it would be even more marked. As cars have become more efficient the impact of the reducing numbers has not been felt.
I actually think this will be one of the factors that will push more people to electric once the critical mass is found. Imagine how petrol stations will start to close as the customer base drops, or the price will go up significantly, and again this will help tip the scales.
Honestly I think its a matter of time until supermarkets get in on the charging, they have great big carparks that would be pretty darn easy to wire up, in stages as demand grows. It would actually help their dominance and for many people a weekly shop would be quite a high % charge over an hour or so. Or people who nip in every few days, well they may get 20-40% each time. Yes the model will be different, I would happily spend a couple of minutes plugging in, in reality that once a week would be less time and less hastle than as pointed out having to queue to get to a pump whilst people are shopping in the petrol station, or taking ages to move off etc.

I am sure we will be debating how the tesco electric is no where near as good as the BP electric at some point in the not too distant future

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

all right.

lets start by assuming for the sake of convenience everyone's average battery capacity is ~60kwh (the longer range version of the nissan leaf)

to charge that overnight (forget fast chargers, we'll be nice and say it takes 12hrs to charge from empty to full) you'll be drawing 5kw from the charger.

so, lets just forget tower blocks, and houses without driveways and assume everyone has a 5kw charger available to them to do this.

doing a straight swap from IC to electric we'll assume we have ~38million cars on the roads (ie the number of cars doesn't increase from current levels), lets be super generous here and call half of those garage queens so 19million cars used daily (RAC has 15 million as the figure for daily commuters, so including non-workers and leisure use we're not too far off)

so, 19 million cars at 5kw each is 95Gw so that's our worst-case peak load. realistically not everyone's going to be charging at the same time but given we're talking a few hours to charge there's going to be a hell of a lot of overlap at the start of the night when people plug their car in and hit the hay.

given in 2014 the average power demand for electricity was 34Gw, we're gonna need 20 more stations on the scale of hinkley point c to meet that.

and that's just the macro scale, on the more local scale there are plenty of places where a hamlet of 10 cars dropping a 50kw load on the grid is going to kill it.

I think what your missing is the development of the smart network, so the chargers would be told when to stop and when to start.
And also that the average mileage per annum would mean the average person would not be charging 60kwh per day, more like per week.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

all right.

lets start by assuming for the sake of convenience everyone's average battery capacity is ~60kwh (the longer range version of the nissan leaf)

to charge that overnight (forget fast chargers, we'll be nice and say it takes 12hrs to charge from empty to full) you'll be drawing 5kw from the charger.

so, lets just forget tower blocks, and houses without driveways and assume everyone has a 5kw charger available to them to do this.

doing a straight swap from IC to electric we'll assume we have ~38million cars on the roads (ie the number of cars doesn't increase from current levels), lets be super generous here and call half of those garage queens so 19million cars used daily (RAC has 15 million as the figure for daily commuters, so including non-workers and leisure use we're not too far off)

so, 19 million cars at 5kw each is 95Gw so that's our worst-case peak load. realistically not everyone's going to be charging at the same time but given we're talking a few hours to charge there's going to be a hell of a lot of overlap at the start of the night when people plug their car in and hit the hay.

given in 2014 the average power demand for electricity was 34Gw, we're gonna need 20 more stations on the scale of hinkley point c to meet that.

and that's just the macro scale, on the more local scale there are plenty of places where a hamlet of 10 cars dropping a 50kw load on the grid is going to kill it.

I do 1K miles per year in my car and the wife 8K miles per year in hers.

so I could charge mine during the day (we also have solar panels).

or we could just rotate cars and charge during the day. as in use mine 1 day and hers the next and charge for free. that seems ideal for us. but you can't just assume everyone need a full charge every night.

take the assumption only 50% of them need a full charge then that goes to what 47Gw and 2014 was 5 years ago, crypto mining, etc has put a lot more demand on leccy in 2017 especially. so the network could handle it easily I imagine, especially if smart meters and smart networks are introduced.

 

[Journey]

all right.

lets start by assuming

Ok, lets start also by assuming that every single person in the the country takes their car to the fuel pumps every single day, all at the same time to fill up, from completely empty to full.

Do you realise how stupid you look typing that? Since what I have said above is exactly what you are saying, but for the current main fuel delivery system for cars.

30kWh Leaf which is lucky to get 110 miles, gets used every day for commuting and school run, and is plugged in every 3 days, and consumes about 24-27kW of electrons. That's real world usage, for a huge ton of people, tell me how many people you know do over 1400 miles per week? Since that is what you are stating at 60kWh batteries being filled every day.

Starting to sink in yet?

 

[adolf hamster]

Ok, lets start also by assuming that every single person in the the country takes their car to the fuel pumps every single day, all at the same time to fill up, from completely empty to full.

the reason people don't fill up every day is because it takes negligible time to do and you get ~300 miles+ of range from a tank (much more for some cars)

whereas if you could charge at home of course people are going to top it up overnight, especially in rural areas where commutes are longer.

regardless of how "full" or not the battery is the majority of the charge is at full whack.

many people have to deal with a 20 mile commute each way, so 40% daily usage not including pleasure uses, and many people will need to use their cars for work purposes which means you can't guarantee in a day you might not have a lot of extra driving, so you'd keep it topped up because you can't just pop into the petrol station and be ready to go again in the space of 5 minutes.

and this is of course assuming the battery is maintaining it's performance, which on a 15 year old car is going to be impressive.

 

[Journey]

the reason people don't fill up every day is because it takes negligible time to do and you get ~300 miles+ of range from a tank (much more for some cars)

whereas if you could charge at home of course people are going to top it up overnight, especially in rural areas where commutes are longer.

regardless of how "full" or not the battery is the majority of the charge is at full whack.

Why are you now moving the goal posts? You said "everyone's average battery capacity is ~60kwh" and "it takes 12hrs to charge from empty to full"

Your assumption is that all of the "19million cars used daily" need a full charge, which lets be fair is an idiotic thing to say, hence my comparison to filling up every day. You also seem to forget that cars have differing efficiency just like fossil fuel cars do. Your 60kWh example is around 220 miles of real world range from the Leaf, so again you stated empty to full every day, that's 7 days a week, so over 1500 miles.

Even if you lived in the middle of nowhere and had done 100 miles out of your 200 miles, that is half of the 60kW of electrons you 'assumed' for a top up every day.

Just admit it your example was stupid, and unrealistic, and you'd have some credibility left if you just made some simple calculations based on real world usage of any typical car.

FYI - You can get BEV's that do 300+ miles of range on a single charge as well so... the whole filling up every day thing...

 

[Jony27]

When prices are better. I saw a lot of the eGolfs when we were in Iceland 2 months ago and really liked the idea of them but wouldn't pay for the current price.
It would also need to be after I get my own place with a drive

 

[adolf hamster]

Why are you now moving the goal posts? You said "everyone's average battery capacity is ~60kwh" and "it takes 12hrs to charge from empty to full"

Your assumption is that all of the "19million cars used daily" need a full charge, which lets be fair is an idiotic thing to say, hence my comparison to filling up every day. You also seem to forget that cars have differing efficiency just like fossil fuel cars do. Your 60kWh example is around 220 miles of real world range from the Leaf, so again you stated empty to full every day, that's 7 days a week, so over 1500 miles.

Even if you lived in the middle of nowhere and had done 100 miles out of your 200 miles, that is half of the 60kW of electrons you 'assumed' for a top up every day.

Just admit it your example was stupid, and unrealistic, and you'd have some credibility left if you just made some simple calculations based on real world usage of any typical car.

FYI - You can get BEV's that do 300+ miles of range on a single charge as well so... the whole filling up every day thing...

i'm not moving the goalposts, the 60kwh in 12hours calculation was to work out what the minimum charger would need to be capable of if it was installed in a home. faster chargers are going to require even higher power so i decided to be generous and use a lower capacity battery and the longest realistic charge time.

i never said they needed a full charge, the full charge was only to determine the minimum charger requirements.

realistically not everyone's going to be charging at the same time but given we're talking a few hours to charge there's going to be a hell of a lot of overlap at the start of the night when people plug their car in and hit the hay.

try reading, then try comprehending.

 

[sovietspybob]

Also for the people moaning about not being able to charge outside your house, with the latest chargers (not even some pie in the sky years away promise) you can charge a standard range (say 250mile) EV in around 20 minutes to 80% so for most people they'll need 20 minutes once a week somewhere, could be outside they gym or the supermarket, or even if we have to change our lifestyle slightly to just sit somewhere for 20 minutes once a week it'd hardly be the end of the world as we know it.

The latest Tesla V3 supercharges will charge at 1000 miles per hour, so with the base model 3 having 240 mile range you'll be done in like 15 minutes.

 

[Journey]

try reading, then try comprehending.

Yes I agree, you should.

i never said they needed a full charge, the full charge was only to determine the minimum charger requirements.

Minimum charger requirement? Make up your mind either people need fast charging, or they need it charging for a long time. They either need a top up or a full 60kW, which is it? Peak load will be determined by a mix of things, and not a doomsday scenario of all 19 million vehicles being plugged in all at the same time.

Being completely selfish, 95% of all my charging is/will be done from my own renewable energy source with little to no electricity from the grid, so you can adjust your 19 million to at least 18,999,998 cars.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

i'm not moving the goalposts, the 60kwh in 12hours calculation was to work out what the minimum charger would need to be capable of if it was installed in a home. faster chargers are going to require even higher power so i decided to be generous and use a lower capacity battery and the longest realistic charge time.

i never said they needed a full charge, the full charge was only to determine the minimum charger requirements.



try reading, then try comprehending.

Your missing the other point I posted above still.
The smart energy network is also about being able to tell devices when to turn on and off. You can get if you want from Octopus a special plan that charges different rates every 30 minutes, this has the newer generation meter as a requirement.
The point is you pay less on periods with lower demand. They demonstrate that already people who move to this plan move their energy usage outside the few most expensive hours quite noticeably.
The meters will tell high energy usage items when to stop, and when to start as the grid is balanced for peak demand.

 

[adolf hamster]

Minimum charger requirement? Make up your mind either people need fast charging, or they need it charging for a long time. They either need a top up or a full 60kW, which is it? Peak load will be determined by a mix of things, and not a doomsday scenario of all 19 million vehicles being plugged in all at the same time.

again missing the point, i was trying to be as generous as possible when it comes to the requirements for charging and the load on the grid, hence going for the slow charge as that would take the least demand and require the least change to existing infrastructure.

 

[Journey]

again missing the point, i was trying to be as generous as possible when it comes to the requirements for charging and the load on the grid, hence going for the slow charge as that would take the least demand and require the least change to existing infrastructure.

Your scenario is set out like a GCSE maths question where there are so many holes in the scenario to make the answer possible, rather than the answer accurate. Again, do some research and stop trying to bring on a doomsday scenario that will literally never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen. (I asked my 9 year old how many ever's should be put in there since that about where we are at). Enjoy your day.