why all the hate for hs2?

Another 10 years does seem a bit ridiculous, especially looking at how far progressed a lot of the work is already, like the various viaducts and tunnels that have already been built... French lines of similar scale seem to take about 5 years to build, but this delay takes it to about 15 years.

Poor decision making at the government level has got to be part of the story (constant changes to scope, lack of certainty about the project meaning no one can invest in capacity to deliver it with confidence, deliberately slowing delivery to reduce annual costs even if the total cost increases as a result, etc), but I think it's clear HS2 itself and the contractors working for them share the blame.

I'm very pro high speed rail in general, but the way HS2 is being managed by our politicians and delivered by the industry is making it hard to stay enthusiastic.

Would echo comments about how things like this seem all too emblematic of wider problems with the direction the country is going and how it's being run.
 
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Not sure how this can't be seen as some type of fraud and theft? £250m to design something that's not going to get built?

Disgraceful joke.
 
GreatAuk said:
Another 10 years does seem a bit ridiculous, especially looking at how far progressed a lot of the work is already, like the various viaducts and tunnels that have already been built... French lines of similar scale seem to take about 5 years to build, but this delay takes it to about 15 years.

Poor decision making at the government level has got to be part of the story (constant changes to scope, lack of certainty about the project meaning no one can invest in capacity to deliver it with confidence, deliberately slowing delivery to reduce annual costs even if the total cost increases as a result, etc), but I think it's clear HS2 itself and the contractors working for them share the blame.

I'm very pro high speed rail in general, but the way HS2 is being managed by our politicians and delivered by the industry is making it hard to stay enthusiastic.

Would echo comments about how things like this seem all too emblematic of wider problems with the direction the country is going and how it's being run.
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It is not ridiculous at all. All our governments let the private sector supple on the teat of the tax payer until it is basically run dry. They all have conflict of interests in all sorts of construction.

Resurfacing of the A1 Wentbridge viaduct which was meant to be finished in 2023 has been delayed until August this year and will most likely go into 2026. All costing the tax payer millions if not billions in logistical delays. The A52 bypass has a bridge which isn't up to spec and the company that designed it incorrectly is expecting the council to foot the bill!

Then you have rubbish like this which is just blind robbery.


HS2 is just the tip of a massive mountain of corruption and greed.
 
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Total cost of £66B and Wales won't see a penny, won't see a benefit and the project was classified as an England and Wales project specifically to cut Wales out even though it has been agreed that infrastructure as a whole has been vastly underfunded by both Labour and Conservative governments. If there hasn't been the greed and corruption that is married to each and every government project, £4B would have been spent on infrastructure in Wales and had they not dropped the link up North, there would be a tiny benefit for those living around Crewe.

Happy to take taxpayer money but not spend it where it is most needed.
 
A lot is made of European / Asian countries completing these quicker, cheaper etc...Yes to both but with caveats; remember we're a small island, other countries are typically much larger, with wider flat landscapes, allowing routing to be through the middle of nowhere, we're having to route through existing infrastructure, short of purchasing complete villages and towns all over the place we can't solve that, not to mention re-routing hundreds of miles or roads. Something Brunel didn't have to contend with. Plus changes in labour laws, H&S, pay, material costs etc..

As for cheaper, Japan's 1960s bullet train system (380B yen) at modern inflated costs would be 1.8T yen / £9,244,800,000 hardly cheap! Not to mention they're facing similar extortionate costs for the latest extension programme (https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tr...n-extension-plan-under-pressure-as-costs-soar)

A much better idea instead of this would be re-designing the east-west northern rail links, Liverpool / Manchester - Hull. At least there's action on the reinstallation of the Varsity Line.
 
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Lyle44 said:
A lot is made of European / Asian countries completing these quicker, cheaper etc...Yes to both but with caveats; remember we're a small island, other countries are typically much larger, with wider flat landscapes, allowing routing to be through the middle of nowhere, we're having to route through existing infrastructure, short of purchasing complete villages and towns all over the place we can't solve that, not to mention re-routing hundreds of miles or roads. Something Brunel didn't have to contend with. Plus changes in labour laws, H&S, pay, material costs etc..

As for cheaper, Japan's 1960s bullet train system (380B yen) at modern inflated costs would be 1.8T yen / £9,244,800,000 hardly cheap! Not to mention they're facing similar extortionate costs for the latest extension programme (https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tr...n-extension-plan-under-pressure-as-costs-soar)

A much better idea instead of this would be re-designing the east-west northern rail links, Liverpool / Manchester - Hull. At least there's action on the reinstallation of the Varsity Line.
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This is the problem with our governments. They are investing everything with links to London. Leveling up other areas of the country would bring far bigger benefits as a whole.

Manchester would be a good starting point then maybe giving the Northeast some love too.
 
bainbridge said:
I heard that some of the stations are due to be finished soon.

With no railway in place, I wonder what purpose they will be put to.

HS2 is an embarrassment IMO
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Not really due to be finished soon. The terminus at Euston hasn't even started yet, the tunnel boring was on hold last I heard. The station at Old Oak Common is underway and due for completion and testing etc 2029-2033. Curzon Street in Birmingham was due earlier but that was pushed back to 2029-33 as well, presumably now these dates are pushed back again..
 
Reading about what's happening with China's new high speed trains, I think this is going to be a disaster. China's are losing horrific amount of money because people just aren't using them, probably because it's to expensive.

I think the same thing will happen here. The government will want to see a return and it's the UK, so prices will be high. Making it a direct link to London which is only 10 minutes quicker is also a big problem, that's a very narrow scope.
 
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Nasher said:
Reading about what's happening with China's new high speed trains, I think this is going to be a disaster. China's are losing horrific amount of money because people just aren't using them, probably because it's to expensive.

I think the same thing will happen here. The government will want to see a return and it's the UK, so prices will be high. Making it a direct link to London which is only 10 minutes quicker is also a big problem, that's a very narrow scope.
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They saw a cash cow because of the ridiculous prices we pay already for train travel.
 
Nasher said:
Reading about what's happening with China's new high speed trains, I think this is going to be a disaster. China's are losing horrific amount of money because people just aren't using them, probably because it's to expensive.

I think the same thing will happen here. The government will want to see a return and it's the UK, so prices will be high. Making it a direct link to London which is only 10 minutes quicker is also a big problem, that's a very narrow scope.
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It's there for extra capacity, not for the extra 10min, and it'll get used. A lot of people rely on rail, which is also why they price gouge.
 
Mesai said:
It's there for extra capacity, not for the extra 10min, and it'll get used. A lot of people rely on rail, which is also why they price gouge.
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But from Birmingham to London? No one is commuting that. It'll get used by people going the other way for a cheaper pissup at weekends.
 
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Nasher said:
Reading about what's happening with China's new high speed trains, I think this is going to be a disaster. China's are losing horrific amount of money because people just aren't using them, probably because it's to expensive.

I think the same thing will happen here. The government will want to see a return and it's the UK, so prices will be high. Making it a direct link to London which is only 10 minutes quicker is also a big problem, that's a very narrow scope.
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Interesting. Can you point towards a report on this? Surprised the Chinese government would allow that kind of information to be shared!
 
U.K. trains are not a cash cow, despite the high prices, the government is still subsidising it to the tune of millions every week. Trains are cheaper in Europe but their government are subsidising with piles of cash.

As others have said, the new line will get used heavily (if they build it to its full scope - that means To Euston) and it enables more local services on the existing lines which are overcrowded.

Look at the Elizabeth line in London as an example of what increasing capacity achieves.

The issue is we need another 5 or 6 HS2’s shadowing all the mainlines and another 5-6 Elizabeth lines just across london. As well as other major upgrades all over the country.

The major error with HS2 was the target speed of the trans. Slightly lower top speeds and the track doesn’t need to be as straight and that would have made it considerably cheaper to build.
 
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Nasher said:
But from Birmingham to London? No one is commuting that. It'll get used by people going the other way for a cheaper pissup at weekends.
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Connecting more of the UK via rail should only be a good thing, especially if it enables growth outside of London. The government is just terrible at implementing it.
 
The political mentality in this country is absolutely broken from the top down. Being PM isn't an opportunity to shine for your people, it's a show of power with the mentality of "I just need to survive these four years". Now add in all the backhanders and scandals and you can see why we're stagnating as a nation, there is zero interest in improving anything. Quick wins, claim the glory, move on.

And whenever the gov do try something they're confronted by a barrage of negative media and bickering from the rest of parliament, and the public. There is no logic or reason, it's always a case of "man bad" and that's as far as it goes.

It's a shame really, as the demise of this country on the global stage is really clear for all to see.
 
Nasher said:
But from Birmingham to London? No one is commuting that. It'll get used by people going the other way for a cheaper pissup at weekends.
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The idea behind HS2 was capacity. The issue with fast trains is they take a larger distance to stop - so the gaps between trains needs to be bigger. Remove those trains off the line and those gaps can shrink allowing more other services. They've messed about with it so much over the years, whether those gains can be realised is a different question, but I'd imagine there will be at least a fractional increase.
 
Penfold101 said:
Luckily, they built other stations on the way.
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Only 4, 2 are in London and 2 are in Birmingham. So effectively it has 2 stops.

For the rest of the people on the route. They have lost countryside (sometimes land and homes) to have concrete eyesores build over it for a train they can't even use.

It's another London centric project which has no benefit elsewhere.
 
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