why all the hate for hs2?

You’ve missed the point spectacularly as usual.

The point of the new line is to take the people already traveling from London to Birmingham (and hopefully further, up to Manchester) off the existing lines.

The existing lines are then used to better service the intermediate stations and freight with more frequent trains.

This has already been explained once in the last day. This is really not genius level stuff here.
 
You’ve missed the point spectacularly as usual.

The point of the new line is to take the people already traveling from London to Birmingham (and hopefully further, up to Manchester) off the existing lines.

The existing lines are then used to better service the intermediate stations and freight with more frequent trains.

This has already been explained once in the last day. This is really not genius level stuff here.

Sure but unless it's cheaper than the current, 10 minute slower trains (which it won't be). Why would people use it? Services won't get cut if demand it still there and it's a different operator.

Like i said, China is losing **** loads of money on their HS trains. Nowhere near enough people are using them.
 
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Sure but unless it's cheaper than the current, 10 minute slower trains (which it won't be). Why would use it? Services won't get cut if demand it still there and it's a different operator.

There are already direct, near non-stop services to Birmingham from London. These will move to the new line, they will not be available on the old lines once HS2 is operational. That’s the whole point of the new line.

The old lines will then have additional services which stop at every station on the way (these exist already, just more of them) and additional freight trains.

Im not sure why you are worried about different operators, all services are being bought in the GBR ownership.

China’s trains has zero relevance to what’s happening in the U.K.
 
Sure but unless it's cheaper than the current, 10 minute slower trains (which it won't be). Why would people use it? Services won't get cut if demand it still there and it's a different operator.

Like i said, China is losing **** loads of money on their HS trains. Nowhere near enough people are using them.


HS2 moves many of the long distance commuters who are going from the ends of the line to the new line, meanwhile the commuters using the old line for a short hop between the end points now have more space because people are using the other option.

This is really simple stuff.
It's not speed, it's about increasing the capacity, for both the long distance travel, and for local capacity by completely separating them. Adding a new set of tracks is the only possible way to do that for many of our rail routes, as we're frequently using the same routes that were bult 100 years ago and have in many cases went way past the design capacity decades ago (IIRC they've tried bodging it with longer trains with more carriages which involved massive works on the stations, fiddling with the train seating to squeeze more in etc)

I have to use a route that includes a "commuter" section at times and I absolutely hate it, because much of the time there is zero seating and it's crammed to the point where Sardines would be organising a strike, for a 2-3 hour trip about an hour or so involves stopping every 5 minutes to have more people get on.
Trains along any reasonably popular commuter route are actively unpleasant, and positively hellish if you're going a long way and have to endure those sections.

I don't care if the train is 10 minutes faster, I care that something like HS2 means that they increase capacity by splitting the types of traffic across two physical lines which means that there is space to actually get on the train without the need of a bullzozer pushing me in the door,. Let alone the fact that I'm likely to be able to find a seat so I don't spend 2 hours standing. For a lot of people doing that sort of distance on a regular basis one of the reasons you go by train is the hope you can do some work whilst travelling, you can't do that whilst standing with barely room to pull your phone out.
This is what HS2 does, it gives that extra capacity to both let existing passengers travel in a little more comfort, but adds a ton more capacity as you've doubled the actual physical capability of the route so can now run many more trains both local and long distance.


Also you can't necessarily compare China to the UK, IIRC a lot of their new high speed routes are much longer than we're building, and not really for routes that are already popular/at capacity with existing rail, China is building them for several reasons that include off the top of my head:
A way to keep/improve their capabilities for constructing rail networks and making trains.
Employ very large numbers of people as a way to keep money moving in their economy.
Looking ahead for the next 25-50 years - many of our rail routes took decades to really become popular/hit capacity.
National Prestige - Look we've built more high speed rail than anyone else, and done it in a fraction of the time, we're a great nation!.
 
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U.K. trains are not a cash cow, despite the high prices, the government is still subsidising it to the tune of millions every week. Trains are cheaper in Europe but their government are subsidising with piles of cash.

As others have said, the new line will get used heavily (if they build it to its full scope - that means To Euston) and it enables more local services on the existing lines which are overcrowded.

Look at the Elizabeth line in London as an example of what increasing capacity achieves.

The issue is we need another 5 or 6 HS2’s shadowing all the mainlines and another 5-6 Elizabeth lines just across london. As well as other major upgrades all over the country.

The major error with HS2 was the target speed of the trans. Slightly lower top speeds and the track doesn’t need to be as straight and that would have made it considerably cheaper to build.
European trains subsidised with the profits made from operating trains in the UK, which are subsidised by UK taxpayers.

Ain’t privatisation wonderful.
 
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European trains subsidised with the profits made from operating trains in the UK, which are subsidised by UK taxpayers.

Ain’t privatisation wonderful.
True but the amounts of money involved are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Most operators are not linked to other state operators. The vast vast majority of the subsidiaries is from their own tax payers.

That and they are all getting binned off over the next few years anyway.
 
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Sure but unless it's cheaper than the current, 10 minute slower trains (which it won't be). Why would people use it? Services won't get cut if demand it still there and it's a different operator.

Like i said, China is losing **** loads of money on their HS trains. Nowhere near enough people are using them.
TLDR - classic malinvestment coming back to bite but on a scale humanity has never seen.

They overbuilt HS trains in China, along with malls, cities, cars, everything. Every province was under massive pressure to deliver growth throughout the 2000’s, first half of 2010’s, so they just kept building until you had them running lines hundreds of miles in all directions to the middle of nowhere. Fantastic for the few poor rural kids that want to travel to high tier cities on the odd occasion but financially it makes zero sense.

The upkeep, the maintenance, staff etc. Now all the local governments have toxic debt weighing them down for projects that aren’t returning anything like the economic growth the initial projects did.
 
The point of the new line is to take the people already traveling from London to Birmingham (and hopefully further, up to Manchester) off the existing lines.

The existing lines are then used to better service the intermediate stations and freight with more frequent trains.
Yep. But they never explained it to the public like that unfortunately. It was all about speed, it didn't actually need to be so fast and the speed has badly hurt the project because speed in this country is expensive due to the need for straighter lines, very large radius curves etc.
 
Yep. But they never explained it to the public like that unfortunately. It was all about speed, it didn't actually need to be so fast and the speed has badly hurt the project because speed in this country is expensive due to the need for straighter lines, very large radius curves etc.
I think the main reason why they advertised it as speed was for a "wow" factor. "Look UK bullet trains!" vs "wooo more trains yay sexy". Have you got anything about the speed being an issue? I've seen it mentioned before, and obviously I understand why speed could cause issues, but I don't think I actually saw any examples of what could have been improved if the speed were reduced a bit.
 
It’s not what could be improved with less speed, it’s what could be done cheaper.

Basically, cheaper land, less tunnels and bridges and less disruption generally as the track can be more easily routed around existing infrastructure and property.
 
Not that it's the main point, but where has this '10 minutes faster' figure come from? Even just London to Birmingham would save more like half an hour.
 
Only 4, 2 are in London and 2 are in Birmingham. So effectively it has 2 stops.

For the rest of the people on the route. They have lost countryside (sometimes land and homes) to have concrete eyesores build over it for a train they can't even use.

It's another London centric project which has no benefit elsewhere.

How the hell do you manage to be both so thick and so confident at the same time, it's like a superpower. I think we should call you Spackerman :D
 
All the projects that were activated after HS2 shutdown by the tories, Labour have told all the local councils are on hold again so they can "focus in other areas" *cough* HS2.
 
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