I'm all for it, our ageing infrastructure is clearly showing its age and degradation, but feel it should've been part of a clear overall plan not just a new HS rail, I'm talking roads/motorways/bridges and other infrastructure, one without the other would be like skimming over a crack which is only going to grow larger.
why all the hate for hs2?
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And the train companies who operate the HS2 line will no doubt put up the fares on other services to subsidise the cost.
Soldato
More rubbish
80Mb is nothing if the backbone can not support it in constant use. What is going to happen say in 5 years when there is much more tv on demand in high definition? alone side the sky services? simple answer the network will grind to a halt.
As for most people not having gigabit network this is irrelevant, as of now as we are talking long term 5 years or so by which time i would guess most if not all would.
VDSL at 80mb is still a lot better than ADSL2, half the line is fibre, eventually they will do the other half. I don't think we can complain, it is still a very subsidised service. Once we all have VDSL then they will upgrade to full fibre. Most peoples LAN at home isn't even gigabit.
I have, it costs a fortune. The Japanese maglev line is estimated to cost 82 billion $ and it is a shorter distance than this project.
It is a lot of money but it is a massive project spanning decades. Lines all over the country are still being electrified and getting more carriages
Yes lets just give up on democracy and have some engineers inchargewe vote for the party we think is best for the country, they inturn consult engineers. getting rid of deomcracy wouldn't end well. Hitler quite liked technology...
Maglev is better but we just can't afford it. You complain we are living in the past, well without HSR we are, all of europe has it FFS.
Godwins law?
Oh dear.
Im sorry but theres nothing good about democracy, it has always been a pointless effort, until the average IQ is 140 it will not work.
I dont give a damn what Europe has, Europe is crashing to the ground, do we want that to?
We need to focus on projects that bring the most POTENT ADVANTAGES TO CIVILISATION, not a bunch of iron girders and steel boxes, unless there was a massive leap in Train technology (IE Superconductor plating)
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Soldato
Have you heard of 21 CN. BTWholesale upgraded their network before rolling out fibre. The backbone can be much more easily upgraded than the last mile. I work for an ISP.
Soldato
Decomcracy is the best solution. Go live in China if you don't think so.
London <-> Birmingham isn't the busiest single journey, but the WCML is the busiest line in the country, Birmingham is on it and it will be full by 2025.
Sending trains that go through Birmingham down HS2 will cut journey times for more people than just those travelling between London and Birmingham (the rolling stock will be a mix of British loading gauge for onward travel to Glasgow, etc, and European gauge for HS1/2 only) and relieve pressure on the WCML.
WCML's capacity problem can only be dealt with by allowing trains from all major cities served by the line to join HS2 at Birmingham (and eventually Manchester). If Maglev was built, the line wouldn't be much use except for journeys between a few cities.
A Maglev network would be nice, but it's not the solution to the problem that HS2 is meant to solve.
Soldato
Why aren't they going with maglev? From what I've read itll be cheaper (both to build and maintain) quieter, need less space to turn (thereby reducing demolition required) and itll be faster!
Ive also read that China are actually slowing down their HS trains to 190mph becasue of safety fears. Well that's great isn't it, I bet our train won't ever run at 225 as advertised. Stupid, badly though out, waste!
Ive also read that China are actually slowing down their HS trains to 190mph becasue of safety fears. Well that's great isn't it, I bet our train won't ever run at 225 as advertised. Stupid, badly though out, waste!
Soldato
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No. Just no. The JRTRI track uses crazy Jap tech and was built years ago when the prices were crazy high and is mainly metal and almost all of the cost is because the line runs straight through the center of Japan so is almost entirely underground. The Transrapid method is largely concrete. When the Chinese used it in Shanghai it cost them $1.4bn for 30km including all their stock as well. Tranrapid currently put prices at between £22m and £70m per km INCLUDING trains, stations, elevated sections and cuttings. Which would make the 180km HS2 very reasonably priced £4bn to £13bn.
You really need to swot up before banding around nonsense statements. As I have said before MagLev was rejected by the government because of the noise because our government don't know **** about ****.
Also firstly LOL Godwin's but also Hitler gave Germany a world leading infrastructure that remains one of the best to this day so clearly a technocracy is really bad....oh wait.
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Soldato
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I did not realise that was the intention. In that case HS2 capable stock would be slightly more expensive but there are MagLev-Conventional capable trains in development.
IMO the key thing people are forgetting here is it isn't just 30 minutes.
Suddenly, a lot of people living in and around Birmingham could save an hour a day commuting into London. That is a significant amount of time, and could enable lots of people to have sub 1 hour commutes, something in my experience which is seen as a bit of a psychological barrier.
There are certain people on this forum who are a lot better placed than me to give input as to the type of system we should go for, but from my eyes, anything which could potentially link into existing networks like eurostar can only be good. Birmingham to Paris direct by train could be on the cards I presume
Suddenly, a lot of people living in and around Birmingham could save an hour a day commuting into London. That is a significant amount of time, and could enable lots of people to have sub 1 hour commutes, something in my experience which is seen as a bit of a psychological barrier.
There are certain people on this forum who are a lot better placed than me to give input as to the type of system we should go for, but from my eyes, anything which could potentially link into existing networks like eurostar can only be good. Birmingham to Paris direct by train could be on the cards I presume
All very well in theory. But will someone in Birmingham be able to get to their office in London in an hour using HS2? No.
In 13 years will we need as many people to travel up and down the country as regularly? Probably not.
I think v0n made some excellent points that everyone since seems to have ignored.
However, making train journeys cheaper isn't going to be a benefit if the network is at maximum capacity anyway...
It made me think though — I currently commute (by car) from Portsmouth to Southampton.
An annual season ticket from Fratton to Southampton Central is £1,992.
My diesel costs to drive are £1,680 (estimated).
Once you include the purchase cost, insurance, tax, MOT and servicing it obviously works out more expensive to commute by car. Lets say for arguments sake £500 extra per year not including the cost of the car.
HOWEVER, It's door-to-door, I can leave when I like, I don't have to share my personal space with other people, I can carry loads more stuff, I can use it to go to client meetings and I can use the car for more than just getting to work on a week day.
For me it's a no-brainer.
The train would have to give me a significant saving over my car if I was even going to contemplate changing to public transport.
However, making train journeys cheaper isn't going to be a benefit if the network is at maximum capacity anyway...
It made me think though — I currently commute (by car) from Portsmouth to Southampton.
An annual season ticket from Fratton to Southampton Central is £1,992.
My diesel costs to drive are £1,680 (estimated).
Once you include the purchase cost, insurance, tax, MOT and servicing it obviously works out more expensive to commute by car. Lets say for arguments sake £500 extra per year not including the cost of the car.
HOWEVER, It's door-to-door, I can leave when I like, I don't have to share my personal space with other people, I can carry loads more stuff, I can use it to go to client meetings and I can use the car for more than just getting to work on a week day.
For me it's a no-brainer.
The train would have to give me a significant saving over my car if I was even going to contemplate changing to public transport.
Soldato
Why? Heh, pick one of many reasons.
I believe the money could be better spent in more social housing.
I believe the money could be better spent in more social housing.
Instead of building it they could give each taxpayer about £1,500 to fund a faster way to work themselves
To answer the initial question... Speaking on behalf of anyone who has ever tried commuting into London the money would clearly be better spent upgrading and improving what we already have. The trains in this country are a total joke, we don't need some super-fast line between two cities, what's the point? We need more carriages and better infrastructure to stop entire lines grounding to a halt whenever something minor goes wrong. Leaves on the track, anyone? A bit of cold weather?
No-one will commute on HS2 so I'm struggling to see how it will make so much money for the economy.
Besides, isn't there the new fast link from Kent into London? That went down like a damp squib. Last I heard nobody uses it because the fares are so much higher than the normal service -- and the journey only saves you 10mins or something daft.
No-one will commute on HS2 so I'm struggling to see how it will make so much money for the economy.
Besides, isn't there the new fast link from Kent into London? That went down like a damp squib. Last I heard nobody uses it because the fares are so much higher than the normal service -- and the journey only saves you 10mins or something daft.
Soldato
Second city - also being central it's a good location to link to the rest of the big cities of the UK (eventually).You live in Durham
I'm all for it. Not sure why they are doing it to Birmingham though because it's a ****hole but if they are going to do London > Brum > Manchester > Newcastle then that's a good idea I suppose.
I figured they'd just do London to York.
I've not read this whole thread, but wanted to add that I'm totally against this project as well. As I'm sure other people have said, spending £37bn on this project is just insane. The current rail system is an absolute joke and needs serious change, the money would be far better used on existing infrastructure.
From what I understand, only the rich will be able to afford to use the HS2, it isn't any better for the environment (per passenger) than travelling by car. And can you really see us travelling that much in the next decade? Surely with communication advancements we'll make more use of remote board meetings etc.
From what I understand, only the rich will be able to afford to use the HS2, it isn't any better for the environment (per passenger) than travelling by car. And can you really see us travelling that much in the next decade? Surely with communication advancements we'll make more use of remote board meetings etc.
If 1 million people use it, that's 45000000 minutes saved, which is 85.6 years. They should make it faster!