why all the hate for hs2?

[b0rn2sk8]

Maybe it's due to my anecdotal evidence. But do we really need fast links between cities?

The only benefit I can remotely see is for a narrow band of people who might commute from Birmingham to London. For anyone else it isn't needed.

Is just such a tiny subset of people.

Yes, being able to move people and goods around quickly drives economic growth.

You are not going to get people commuting from Birmingham to London on the daily, it’s too far even with HS2. It also doesn’t make economic sense, the season ticket would be £10k or something daft like that. With a spend like that you might as well just live in or closer to London.

Most people that use intercity trains between big urban centres are day trippers, not commuters.

Edit: I just checked, a season ticket from Birmingham to London using the highest speed trains (currently Avanti) is over £12k and over £13k of you want a zone 1-6 added on. Can we please end that commuting narrative please!

 

[413x]

Yes, being able to move people and goods around quickly drives economic growth.

You are not going to get people commuting from Birmingham to London on the daily, it’s too far even with HS2. It also doesn’t make economic sense, the season ticket would be £10k or something daft like that. With a spend like that you might as well just live in or closer to London.

Most people that use intercity trains between big urban centres are day trippers, not commuters.

This is what I don't understand then. Why do you need a high speed rail link other than commuting vs just increased capacity?

Wouldn't it be better to add stops or add capacity rather than adding a brand new high speed link?

I gather this would be much cheaper?


Also. I expect they'll accidentally order Fisher price trains rather than high speed trains and the service will run at 2mph. Our trains will be too big or x, y, z.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

This is what I don't understand then. Why do you need a high speed rail link other than commuting vs just increased capacity?

Wouldn't it be better to add stops or add capacity rather than adding a brand new high speed link?

I gather this would be much cheaper?


Also. I expect they'll accidentally order Fisher price trains rather than high speed trains and the service will run at 2mph. Our trains will be too big or x, y, z.

They already have stops on the existing lines so the trains using the new lines don’t need to stop at every small town on route.

You can’t run express trains on the same track as stopping trains because they can only run at the speed of the slowest train. For example in my neck of the woods they have been campaigning to put on direct non-stopping trains from Norwich to London that will do the journey in 90 mins. I think there is one train a day that does it first thing in the morning because the rest of the time there is too much traffic on the lines.

The whole objective is to add capacity. There are too many trains on the existing lines and they can’t add any more or make them faster.

It’s exactly the same principle behind the Elizabeth line in London. That for the most part follows existing tube lines and stop in similar places. They can’t fit any more trains on existing lines so a new line is the only option. It adds a huge amount of capacity going from east to west and really it’s only a bonus that it happens to be faster.

The problem is the marketing and people have bitten down on the ‘you’ll save 6 mins’ nonsense which is literally the least valuable benefit of the whole project.

That said it’s costing an obscene amount for what it’s offering and I can’t really offer any explanation as to why when you look at what over countries can deliver for way less money (E.g. mag lev in Japan and China).

 

[413x]

They already have stops on the existing lines so the trains using the new lines don’t need to stop at every small town on route.

You can’t run express trains on the same track as stopping trains because they can only run at the speed of the slowest train. For example in my neck of the woods they have been campaigning to put on direct non-stopping trains from Norwich to London that will do the journey in 90 mins. I think there is one train a day that does it first thing in the morning because the rest of the time there is too much traffic on the lines.

The whole objective is to add capacity. There are too many trains on the existing lines and they can’t add any more or make them faster.

It’s exactly the same principle behind the Elizabeth line in London. That for the most part follows existing tube lines and stop in similar places. They can’t fit any more trains on existing lines so a new line is the only option. It adds a huge amount of capacity going from east to west and really it’s only a bonus that it happens to be faster.

The problem is the marketing and people have bitten down on the ‘you’ll save 6 mins’ nonsense which is literally the least valuable benefit of the whole project.

That said it’s costing an obscene amount for what it’s offering and I can’t really offer any explanation as to why when you look at what over countries can deliver for way less money (E.g. mag lev in Japan and China).

Its this really. I know people aren't good at conceptualising big sums. But the cost of HS2 is huge. And worse.. Badly estimated.


In principle it seems great. More "clean" mass transit. If love a train station next door (ironically Hs2 might stop that) as only real way into Cardiff from here is a car or very slow (45-60 mins for a 7 mile trip) bus. (eww bus).
(I live in a suburb type place. Loads of people, terrible infrastructure)

Its frustrating seeing Hs2 being ploughed forward sucking up all that cost and slowing down the building of new stations to previously unserved places.

 

[Trifid]

HS2 now combined with another 2 year delay on the lower thames crossing just shows that the UK infrastructure is in for an even worse time than it currently is.
All down to the sodding gov in power, yet again.

Plus active travel budget cut by 2/3rds.

£500m is going to France to stop a few boats though. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64916446

 

[GreatAuk]

Its this really. I know people aren't good at conceptualising big sums. But the cost of HS2 is huge. And worse.. Badly estimated.


In principle it seems great. More "clean" mass transit. If love a train station next door (ironically Hs2 might stop that) as only real way into Cardiff from here is a car or very slow (45-60 mins for a 7 mile trip) bus. (eww bus).
(I live in a suburb type place. Loads of people, terrible infrastructure)

Its frustrating seeing Hs2 being ploughed forward sucking up all that cost and slowing down the building of new stations to previously unserved places.

How on earth is HS2 preventing a station near Cardiff from being built? You really are reaching there.

There are loads of places with terrible infrastructure, but that is not HS2s fault. If anything HS2 makes improvement of the rest of the rail network more likely in the long run as it becomes a better used and more attractive transport option - network benefits.

HS2 could be cancelled tomorrow and it would do nothing to improve local infrastructure (which is also pretty expensive btw). There is no 'pot of money' which HS2 has stolen all of, it's simply a project that the government has decided to spend money on and if they stopped spending that money then the only effect is that the deficit would be marginally reduced in the short term.

Maybe it's due to my anecdotal evidence. But do we really need fast links between cities?

The only benefit I can remotely see is for a narrow band of people who might commute from Birmingham to London. For anyone else it isn't needed.

Is just such a tiny subset of people.

Travel is good for the economy, business opportunities, and leisure opportunities. Commuting may be part of it (although probably not a huge amount directly on HS2 given the distances involved and how much season tickets will likely cost, possibly more viable for people only commuting a couple of days a week? Lots of commuters will make use of the better local and regional servics it allows though), but actually there's nothing wrong with that if it allows people to be more flexible with job choice, comprising with the partners and families etc. If we want to see any modal shift from road to rail then new journey options enabled by new infrastructure is needed. There is plenty of long distance travel that goes on already - in cars, coaches, and existing long distance trains.

You might as well argue do we really need the existing fast trains? Why can't people just drive or fly or get a slow coach or stopping train? But that's a less sustainable future with worse transport options.

 

[UTmaniac]

Maybe this delay was so we could give France their regular UK immigration control payment?

Sunak and Macron summit: UK to give £500m to help France curb small boat crossings

The cash will fund a French detention centre and is a big increase on what the UK already pays France.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[413x]

How on earth is HS2 preventing a station near Cardiff from being built? You really are reaching there.

There are loads of places with terrible infrastructure, but that is not HS2s fault. If anything HS2 makes improvement of the rest of the rail network more likely in the long run as it becomes a better used and more attractive transport option - network benefits.

HS2 could be cancelled tomorrow and it would do nothing to improve local infrastructure (which is also pretty expensive btw). There is no 'pot of money' which HS2 has stolen all of, it's simply a project that the government has decided to spend money on and if they stopped spending that money then the only effect is that the deficit would be marginally reduced in the short term.

Travel is good for the economy, business opportunities, and leisure opportunities. Commuting may be part of it (although probably not a huge amount directly on HS2 given the distances involved and how much season tickets will likely cost, possibly more viable for people only commuting a couple of days a week? Lots of commuters will make use of the better local and regional servics it allows though), but actually there's nothing wrong with that if it allows people to be more flexible with job choice, comprising with the partners and families etc. If we want to see any modal shift from road to rail then new journey options enabled by new infrastructure is needed. There is plenty of long distance travel that goes on already - in cars, coaches, and existing long distance trains.

You might as well argue do we really need the existing fast trains? Why can't people just drive or fly or get a slow coach or stopping train? But that's a less sustainable future with worse transport options.

Because if Hs2 was classed as a England only project Wales would be entitled to 5bln ish over the next couple of decades for rail.

That's 250mln a year.

Scotland and NI are getting thier share but because (for some bizarre reason) Hs2 is classed as England and Wales. Wales get none of this

It would make building the south Wales metro link much easier, quicker and more likely

 

[GreatAuk]

Because if Hs2 was classed as a England only project Wales would be entitled to 5bln ish over the next couple of decades for rail.

That's 250mln a year.

Scotland and NI are getting thier share but because (for some bizarre reason) Hs2 is classed as England and Wales. Wales get none of this

It would make building the south Wales metro link much easier, quicker and more likely

HS2 would still need to go ahead for Wales to get that extra money though, so blaming hs2 for somehow preventing it doesn't make any sense.

Seems murky because the government claims that Wales has received some extra funding due to spending on hs2, I don't really understand the basis of that claim though. https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2021-0168/
I think it's fair to point out that national projects often don't benefit all parts of the UK equally, but that would include parts of England too.

Worth pointing out that Wales will actually benefit from hs2 though, mainly North Wales via improved rail service both to destinations in England and potentially North-South Wales connections depending on timetable changes.
Also in general a stronger UK economy with ongoing significant investment in the railway industry is good for everyone.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Likewise even wales did get the extra money, there is zero requirement for them to spend it on rail.

That’s not far off from 350m brexit bus thinking.

 

[Azza]

A big hole in the ground.

Some heavy machinery.

Makings of the other big hole in the ground. The yellow one was holding onto the steels and just pushing them into the ground. Making a horrendous sound and making the whole building shake.

 

[adam cool dude]

The perfect depiction of a building site where about ten percent of the workforce are actually working.

 

[chrcoluk]

Loooool.
In in no way surprised.
They probably wanted to cancel it for a while, but had gone all in.

Now they can blame a myriad of external issues, say its down to things beyond their (tories) control and just park it up.


All the dodgy deals and corruption will all be paid, so I'm sure all the internal party members involved have already benefited.


Classic UK headline infrastructure project.
Over budget, late and unfinished.



By time it's finished we will be using teleportation.

Its funny but also sad at the same time, there will be some wealthy individuals who have made lots of money out of this.

 

[chrcoluk]

Except that that's not what it does.

It's an entire new line, so not just a few minutes faster, but more than doubling the capacity as the old line can be used for more local and goods trains, whilst the new line can be used for more large fast trains (when you mix train types on the same line you basically get the worst performance from all types), also the potential to hook up some of the old disused lines that were discontinued as non viable after Beaching* but are now likely viable again if they can be connected up due to increases in local population.

One of the interesting stats that they mentioned was that the rail line takes up something like a third of the space of the equivalent capacity motorway, so a trainline is actually likely far less harmful to the environment it passes through than road construction (and cleaner on an ongoing basis).

The argument that they're going to "save money" by delaying it is blatant nonsense, as it just drags things out and means you're paying more in the long term whilst not getting the benefits until much later.

*IIRC many of the cuts after Beaching were not actually recommended by him, but because the transport minister liked motorways more (and from memory turned out to have extensive connections to companies involved in motorway construction).

They could have doubled the capacity simply by adding extra lines next to existing one's, the tale you are telling is to try and justify it in more meaningful ways. As an example how does it add capacity to the places it travels through but doesnt stop at?

Plus even if this thing was on budget, and genuinly had more benefits, it should never have gone ahead when we have more pressing needs like housing and energy infrastructure. It is a bit like telling your family they cant eat this week so daddy can build a shed for himself.

 

[chrcoluk]

Vanity? Nah cash cow.

The two usually go hand in hand.

Have an affiliante who runs a construction company, simple start a construction project and hire the firm.

 

[chrcoluk]

They already have stops on the existing lines so the trains using the new lines don’t need to stop at every small town on route.

You can’t run express trains on the same track as stopping trains because they can only run at the speed of the slowest train. For example in my neck of the woods they have been campaigning to put on direct non-stopping trains from Norwich to London that will do the journey in 90 mins. I think there is one train a day that does it first thing in the morning because the rest of the time there is too much traffic on the lines.

The whole objective is to add capacity. There are too many trains on the existing lines and they can’t add any more or make them faster.

It’s exactly the same principle behind the Elizabeth line in London. That for the most part follows existing tube lines and stop in similar places. They can’t fit any more trains on existing lines so a new line is the only option. It adds a huge amount of capacity going from east to west and really it’s only a bonus that it happens to be faster.

The problem is the marketing and people have bitten down on the ‘you’ll save 6 mins’ nonsense which is literally the least valuable benefit of the whole project.

That said it’s costing an obscene amount for what it’s offering and I can’t really offer any explanation as to why when you look at what over countries can deliver for way less money (E.g. mag lev in Japan and China).

Your post makes no sense.

Its either capacity or speed, which is it? I accept it as speed as thats what it is been advertised as.

A capacity line would stop more so areas actually benefit from the capacity.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

They could have doubled the capacity simply by adding extra lines next to existing one's, the tale you are telling is to try and justify it in more meaningful ways. As an example how does it add capacity to the places it travels through but doesnt stop at?

I’m pretty certain they did an upgrade that worked exactly like this just before HS2 was on the drawing board. It was a nightmare with one of the busiest lines in the country being closed every weekend for nearly a decade. It’s actually one of the reasons HS2 is a brand new line.

 

[Mesai]

They could have doubled the capacity simply by adding extra lines next to existing one's, the tale you are telling is to try and justify it in more meaningful ways. As an example how does it add capacity to the places it travels through but doesnt stop at?

Plus even if this thing was on budget, and genuinly had more benefits, it should never have gone ahead when we have more pressing needs like housing and energy infrastructure. It is a bit like telling your family they cant eat this week so daddy can build a shed for himself.

A proper government budget would cater for all things. Housing and energy aren’t struggling primarily because of lack of funding; they’re struggling because of lack of government commitment.

The reason other countries can deliver these things relatively on time and close to budget is because they’re committed to it, whereas here it’s always a political at the expense of the economy.

 

[chrcoluk]

A proper government budget would cater for all things. Housing and energy aren’t struggling primarily because of lack of funding; they’re struggling because of lack of government commitment.

The reason other countries can deliver these things relatively on time and close to budget is because they’re committed to it, whereas here it’s always a political at the expense of the economy.

Yes, commitment and funding go hand in hand, if there is no commitment its usually designated "unaffordable", if there is a commitment then the money tree is used. Political choices.

Your point being all three could have been done, yes maybe, but to do HS2 without the other two makes it look ridiculous.

 

[Werewolf]

I’m pretty certain they did an upgrade that worked exactly like this just before HS2 was on the drawing board. It was a nightmare with one of the busiest lines in the country being closed every weekend for nearly a decade. It’s actually one of the reasons HS2 is a brand new line.

Also it would likely have cost a very good percentage of the cost of HSD to do it as they would have had to buy new land and move other infrastructure the same.

And as you say, probably taken decades of disruption to the existing line, IIRC it took something like 5-10 years of massive disruption on about a 30 mile stretch of line near me (one of the busiest in the country) whilst they upgraded it's tracks, and nearly 10 years for them to do improvements at one of the main train stations.

One of the key reasons it's an extremely good idea to have additional separate lines to make up a proper "network" is that it means you can shunt traffic around sections that are undergoing works.