why all the hate for hs2?

[SpellowHouse]

I haven't really seen any reasonable argument for HS2. Although infrastructure work is nearly always a good thing, there seems very little benefit with HS2. Against it is the huge cost at a time when the money would be better spent. Had Osborne really wanted to help the North, he could have done far better than this giant white elephant. How about directly investing in the North? HS2 just makes no sense.

 

[inferno]

I haven't really seen any reasonable argument for HS2. Although infrastructure work is nearly always a good thing, there seems very little benefit with HS2. Against it is the huge cost at a time when the money would be better spent. Had Osborne really wanted to help the North, he could have done far better than this giant white elephant. How about directly investing in the North? HS2 just makes no sense.

The trains are full currently so they need more capacity

 

[Mesai]

I haven't really seen any reasonable argument for HS2. Although infrastructure work is nearly always a good thing, there seems very little benefit with HS2. Against it is the huge cost at a time when the money would be better spent. Had Osborne really wanted to help the North, he could have done far better than this giant white elephant. How about directly investing in the North? HS2 just makes no sense.

HS2 provides line capacity, which helps enable growth. It probably would have been fine if they didn’t screw around and go massively over budget.

 

[200sols]

I haven't really seen any reasonable argument for HS2

You haven't read anything at all about the project then.

 

[Shoza]

The trains are full currently so they need more capacity

Which ones? I regularly travel from Manchester to London Euston at peak times for work. The trains (any of them) are not full. There’s a lot of empty first class carriages too..

 

[200sols]

Which ones? I regularly travel from Manchester to London Euston at peak times for work. The trains (any of them) are not full. There’s a lot of empty first class carriages too..

Capacity on the lines are full. Doesnt mean every train is rammed.

 

[SpellowHouse]

You haven't read anything at all about the project then.

Yes I have. But as I said, it's a nice thing to have, but in times of extreme financial stress, it's completely the wrong project to spend this sort of money on.

 

[squerble]

Yes I have. But as I said, it's a nice thing to have, but in times of extreme financial stress, it's completely the wrong project to spend this sort of money on.

Not really, because if you don't spend sometime you're just kicking the can down the road. Can kicking just means even more expense in the future. Just look at converting all the roads to metric - should have been done in the 60s when everything else changed, but is constantly put off due to cost, yet putting it off just adds ever more costs due to more roads and more signs.

 

[200sols]

Yes I have. But as I said, it's a nice thing to have, but in times of extreme financial stress, it's completely the wrong project to spend this sort of money on.

It wasnt started today in a time of 'extreme' financial stress was it? The worst thing about this project is how much it has been cut effectively rendering most of the actual benefits so watered down that people get angry about the cost.

 

[SpellowHouse]

It wasnt started today in a time of 'extreme' financial stress was it? The worst thing about this project is how much it has been cut effectively rendering most of the actual benefits so watered down that people get angry about the cost.

I remember, at the time, the Conservatives were doing nothing other than complain that the country was massively overspending. Yet, apparently, it was fine to spend this sort of money on a train track that almost no one wants.

 

[200sols]

I remember, at the time, the Conservatives were doing nothing other than complain that the country was massively overspending. Yet, apparently, it was fine to spend this sort of money on a train track that almost no one wants.

Eh, large infrastructure projects are usually a good thing especially in harder times, they keep people employed and remember debt at the time was dirt cheap, it was the right thing to do. Also stop saying no one wants it, that just isn't true. The issue now here is cost and scaling back the project, that is what people don't want.

 

[squerble]

I remember, at the time, the Conservatives were doing nothing other than complain that the country was massively overspending. Yet, apparently, it was fine to spend this sort of money on a train track that almost no one wants.

A lot of people just don't realise they need/want it. All they see is the cost, the fact it goes to London, and shaves a few minutes off a journey here and there, and write it off in their head as "not needed" or "waste of money".

It only takes a basic understanding of how hard it is to mix fast and slow trains to know that a proper, separate high speed rail system is needed in this country.

 

[StriderX]

Doesn't matter now whether anyone wants it or not because the moment the Tories who've presided over this disaster are out of government they will start lambasting Labour for continuing to fund it and it will work.

 

[adam cool dude]

A lot of people just don't realise they need/want it. All they see is the cost, the fact it goes to London, and shaves a few minutes off a journey here and there, and write it off in their head as "not needed" or "waste of money".

It only takes a basic understanding of how hard it is to mix fast and slow trains to know that a proper, separate high speed rail system is needed in this country.

Problem is in the advent of WFH it is all pretty pointless now. A much better use would be to link up all the ports and use it commercially only.

Plus London is already oversaturated. Would be much better to level up the Midlands and North because there are far easier gains to be had in boosting the economy.

You only have to look at private enterprise. All these massive distribution centers are popping up all over the Midlands because you have a willing workforce and plenty of land to build.

 

[200sols]

You only have to look at private enterprise. All these massive distribution centers are popping up all over the Midlands because you have a willing workforce and plenty of land to build.

Nothing to do with them being in the middle of the country then.

 

[sigma]

Which ones? I regularly travel from Manchester to London Euston at peak times for work. The trains (any of them) are not full. There’s a lot of empty first class carriages too..

First class is an interesting one. I guess the economics work out else they wouldn't do it.

 

[Greebo]

Our rail network is massively subsidised by general taxation but instead of that money going into the service it goes into pockets of private operators who clear a profit every year for the share holders! The privatisation of the railways is one of the sickest jokes of recent history! A clever trick that the general public hasn’t noticed to once again transfer huge amounts of public money into private pockets!

Even worse isnt the German railways some of the investors in some of the Uk rail companies so the profits from our rail goes to subsidising the cheaper rail in Germany?

Heard a HS2 engineer on the radio this morning saying the brief from the Govt on HS2 has now changed. They are now tasked with delivering the minimum they can get away with still calling it HS2 which as he says is no way to run a major infrastructure project.

 

[bigmike20vt]

The trains are full currently so they need more capacity

excuse me probably total naivety but............ cant they just put a few more carriages on the trains? maybe it is my memory failing me... but when i was a kid i used to go train spotting with my dad and i am sure the trains then usually had far more carriages than they do now.... so i am not convinced it is that the engines are already at their max rated pulling power.

 

[bigmike20vt]

HS2 provides line capacity, which helps enable growth. It probably would have been fine if they didn’t screw around and go massively over budget.

this is actually a decent reason i guess (werewolf mentioned as well about it making it easier to then improve the rest of the lines in the area which also makes sense).... however given i am not a Londoner, i dont like London and i have no intention of going to London, I just get a bit fed up that it always seems to be either London , or routes into London which always seems to get the love..... OTOH if i want to get the train from Cambridge up to Newcastle or Scotland to see friends or family............. that is a pretty long and more importantly insanely expensive journey (perhaps i could use HS2 for part of the journey but then it would likely push my costs up even more, and am still reliant on crap rail for the rest of it).
IF HS2 was actually going to benefit the train infrastructure as a whole perhaps i would be more onboard with it........ but even once its finished, how is that going to help me get from cambridge to Oxford? its massive expense to help the few people who already have possibly the best train infrastructure in the country as it is (going from Manchester to London as i understand it is not too bad even now)

i think i am right in saying the part going into the north east has been canned hasnt it? as usual then levelling up the north gets culled but the bit to london, the only place any government seems to care about gets the grease again.

all that said, OTOH am not sure it is possible to fix our rail network......... could lines be shut down for months at a time and then the whole lot redone in 1 go? literally get 100s of people working on it, like they did back in the day - (I am not suggesting chain gangs as such but there could even be work for some prisoners if we didnt have the manpower to do it from normal workforce)

 

[Mesai]

this is actually a decent reason i guess.... however given i am not a Londoner, i dont like London and i have no intention of going to London, I just get a bit fed up that it always seems to be either London , or routes into London which always seems to get the love..... OTOH if i want to get the train from Cambridge up to Newcastle or Scotland to see friends or family............. that is a pretty long and more importantly insanely expensive journey.
IF HS2 was actually going to benefit the train infrastructure as a whole perhaps i would be more onboard with it........ but even once its finished, how is that going to help me get from cambridge to Oxford? its massive expense to help the few people who already have possibly the best train infrastructure in the country as it is (going from Manchester to London as i understand it is not too bad even now)

i think i am right in saying the part going into the north east has been canned hasnt it? as usual then levelling up the north gets culled but the bit to london, the only place any government seems to care about gets the grease again.

They've gutted this project because of the usual political BS, which caused major delays and budget overrun. I watched a decent vid showing how they do these project in Europe and how they manage to get them done in time and in budget - the TLDW; being that the government is fully committed to the project, which as I mentioned is not the case here.

I can't recall what's left of this project, but yes, most of it has been de-scoped and it's now just an extra line from Manchester to London. While it will help with capacity, the parts that have been removed would have helped connect other cities (to your point). I vaguely recall a planned route to cover Oxford, Bedford, Cambridge, etc. but who know whether that will happen and when. I also dislike this tube/underground-like structure where you have to go into central London before you can get anywhere else.