People are getting way too sensitive over use of innocuous language at times. Pretty soon we'll barely be able to make reference to anything personal, whether positive or otherwise.
There are far more important battles to fight.
Why the lack of females in technical roles
- Thread starter Stolly
- Start date
People are getting way too sensitive over use of innocuous language at times. Pretty soon we'll barely be able to make reference to anything personal, whether positive or otherwise.
There are far more important battles to fight.
Associate
- Joined
- 21 Oct 2012
- Posts
- 2,332
Like the Jews????
Well the thread is about why there is a lack of women in the tech industry, so discussing the kind of behavior that puts women off is what we're talking about here.
Much of it is not deliberate or malicious, but it goes on all the time. The 'very lovely young lady :smiley face:' comment is a perfect example.
In terms of a lack of females in technical roles - this IS the main battle that there is to fight, everything else stems from it. You can see by the reactions here why it's so hard to make any progress;
1. People who think using language like that isn't a problem.
2. People who think that it's all too PC and you can't call a spade a spade anymore.
So it's OK to say that about her behind her back, but not to her face.
And you STILL can't see why it might not be appropriate?
Associate
- Joined
- 21 Oct 2012
- Posts
- 2,332
All of these people commenting on your posts. All of their opinions are irrelevant.
Everyone always has something to say, none of it bloody matters.
Merry Christmas!
It's hilarious.
I mean she was a competent skilled, thorough it professional, who clearly excellent at her job and the best way you thought to say this was that she was "lovely" but not in a sexual way.... Of course.... Teresa may negotiated the 1st stage of the brexit deal. Lovely lady.
People wonder why the world is full of feminazis on crusades. It's because of deep routed, blasé, sexual discrimination like this exact example that you are still are too blinked to even acknowledge. The UK is so far behind the times.
I personally don't give a crap about it either, I'm just playing devils advocate.
I mean she was a competent skilled, thorough it professional, who clearly excellent at her job and the best way you thought to say this was that she was "lovely" but not in a sexual way.... Of course.... Teresa may negotiated the 1st stage of the brexit deal. Lovely lady.
People wonder why the world is full of feminazis on crusades. It's because of deep routed, blasé, sexual discrimination like this exact example that you are still are too blinked to even acknowledge. The UK is so far behind the times.
I personally don't give a crap about it either, I'm just playing devils advocate.
Last edited:
Deleted member 66701
D
Deleted member 66701
Not only that but he chucked a casual ageist remark in their as well.
Maybe it's because I'm an old dinosaur close to retirement. But I genuinely think the UK is one of the better places for equality. Where do you think is significantly better and why (genuine question from an old guy wanting to understand where is better in this respect)?
So much sensitivity.
We all describe people in a million and one ways. "[Female] is technically strong, and is a lovely woman", "[Male] is technically strong, and is a nice guy" - What's wrong with either of these?
If I have interactions with a female colleague, say in the kitchen or in the break room etc. Zero experience of working with this person, interactions are purely 'social' in a sense would it be wrong to describe the person as 'lovely'?
Context makes up a massive part of this debate, and it's something that will be lost entirely on a forum.
I have colleagues who greet me with a 'Morning lovely' and that's how I occasionally greet them too. There is no underlying misogyny, or derogatory status to being called 'lovely'. But it's a personal thing, and is probably because my work relationships have become friendlier over time.
We all describe people in a million and one ways. "[Female] is technically strong, and is a lovely woman", "[Male] is technically strong, and is a nice guy" - What's wrong with either of these?
If I have interactions with a female colleague, say in the kitchen or in the break room etc. Zero experience of working with this person, interactions are purely 'social' in a sense would it be wrong to describe the person as 'lovely'?
Context makes up a massive part of this debate, and it's something that will be lost entirely on a forum.
I have colleagues who greet me with a 'Morning lovely' and that's how I occasionally greet them too. There is no underlying misogyny, or derogatory status to being called 'lovely'. But it's a personal thing, and is probably because my work relationships have become friendlier over time.
Bulgaria and Romania's tech workforce is around 28% women, where as the UK is only 16%. Still a way to go until 50/50 either way.
The eastern bloc typically has more women in engineering/science as under communism - equal work and equal pay. Now look where we are, getting further behind the times as someone says!
The eastern bloc typically has more women in engineering/science as under communism - equal work and equal pay. Now look where we are, getting further behind the times as someone says!
I Agree with you 100% until i moved to Sweden i thought the Uk was incredibly good. It still is good even compared to the USA and Germany, places that always come up, but Sweden is so far ahead its shocking. Women still get paid less on average, so pay equality isn't there, but as far as roles in the workplace. There are no gender defined jobs. THere are so many Women carpenters, electricians, painters/decorators, you name it. Female police.... I've never seen so many women police, ironically its probably 50/50 as you would expect.
I was genuinely surprised by the first year living here.
I work for the local government, so its quite likely they are extremely careful on equality and such topics but to me, as a foreigner, i find it over baring how "politically correct" people talk and how they act.
They have had so many years of "brainwashing" into equality, i think its finally getting there. that's why i mean we are way behind, at least 25 years.
Its a great place to be female i imagine. As the older generations move on its only going to be more equal.
Agree 99% - Professional relationship to call someone lovely would just be bloody weird, no matter where you live.
As you get to know your colleges personally properly, then your language will change. I think the post that kicked off this side tracked debate was clearly a professional relationship and thats why a few people inc me picked up on it.
I recently had to attend a meeting on workplace discrimination, which was complete over my head, but workplace language is taken so serious here. It wouldn't be surprising that given the right people in power over the next 50 years Sweden tries to turn into a Gender neutral country. I think they could get there, but my god how weird is that....
There's already a 3rd word for neutral sex. His, Han -Her, Hon and Hen (mystery sex.. lol) Whilst most people openly laugh about it, management and officials are starting to be forced into using such nonsense so given that time, it will trickle in and brainwash.
Interestingly enough, Sweden and its neighbours have more gender separation by work roles than we do, and its because they are a more equal society. Remove the social constraints and barriers, and only natural inclination remains. It's why poorer countries in Eastern Europe score fairly well on women in STEM, they work where the opportunities are instead of where they would like to.
Where I am its very normal to say someone is a lovely guy, or lovely man.
It would generally mean some on who is very straight talking, even mannered person.
Good-natured etc. Lovely person, would also not be unusual.
A large proportion of females I've seen in IT roles here have been Irish. Not sure if that's just a freak anecdotal thing or whether they are just more interested in tech over there. I've also worked with a TG female in the past who was very good technically but don't know if that counts in the eyes of OcUK. 
On the continent it's far more common. One of our IT teams in a European office is all female. I'm not surprised in all honesty that women don't seem that keen - as soon as a new female employee starts, most male dominated workplace employees turn into the cast of a Carry On film.
On the continent it's far more common. One of our IT teams in a European office is all female. I'm not surprised in all honesty that women don't seem that keen - as soon as a new female employee starts, most male dominated workplace employees turn into the cast of a Carry On film.
I have worked in Places where the balance was more women, less women, and more men than women. All different kind of ratio's.
In general its about people promoting like minded people, you might find a female director will promote more women.
I would say also in general, fewer women (I have met) are interested in technical subjects, they would be more interested in business or project roles.
I have met some really excellent technical women, and in management roles.
But a lot are a nightmare to work with because it becomes more about power then actually doing the job. Lots of examples of that.
I constantly meet women (managers & developers) who insist on doing things incorrectly, for literally months, before they will accept that a guy has done it a better way, be it a technical solution or a business solution. Perhaps they have to be that hard headed to get there they are I don't know. But its get old real fast. Currently working with a few guys doing the same thing, and its only occurred to me, where I've seen that trait most often before.
Maybe its more of personality thing.
In general its about people promoting like minded people, you might find a female director will promote more women.
I would say also in general, fewer women (I have met) are interested in technical subjects, they would be more interested in business or project roles.
I have met some really excellent technical women, and in management roles.
But a lot are a nightmare to work with because it becomes more about power then actually doing the job. Lots of examples of that.
I constantly meet women (managers & developers) who insist on doing things incorrectly, for literally months, before they will accept that a guy has done it a better way, be it a technical solution or a business solution. Perhaps they have to be that hard headed to get there they are I don't know. But its get old real fast. Currently working with a few guys doing the same thing, and its only occurred to me, where I've seen that trait most often before.
Maybe its more of personality thing.
If I said someone was a lovely teacher, or someone was a lovely doctor. Or a care worker was a lovely person.
That's entirely different than the context of calling lovely in a sexist context or condescendingly.
Father Ted ("Lovely Girl Competition") makes a parody of this.
Lot of multinationals in Tech and Pharma in Ireland. So lots of job equal opportunities. So there is an awareness of that in schools and colleges. Also Ireland never had any heavy industries. So there isn't that legacy.