Windows 7 or 8

[linktoinsanity]

Rofl, nothing will save the decline desktop market.
People just don't need desktops.
It will decline for years if not decades, before stabilising at a much much lower number.

Oh and tablets and smartphones are part of the pc market so your whole quote is a bit funny.
People who thought a new os would boost sells, should not be in the pc industry and should defiantly not be a CEO of an OEM, they are deluded and should have been fired. In fact the management from all the traditional Desktop makers should be sacked for being idiots and not seeing the blatnent trend that analysts could easily see.
And this shows why those in power should be sacked, also notice the downward trend start well before win8,
Also shows why they should be sacked for their lack of tablet offerings, under specced over priced and trounced by the competition.

I'll tell you what is funny. It's the way that you, Elevon, theheyes and sometime gareth always post so quickly whenever someone says something slightly negative about Windows 8. Sometimes this happens without even reading the whole post (where I actually have something positive to say) and often taking what was posted out of context. It's sad and pathetic and just makes you all look insecure about your beloved Windows version.

Tablets and smartphones are seen as part of the PC market? By what clowns? I mean they are technically Personal Computers, but not PCs in the same sense so how can you clump them in the same section? (This is only a dig at you if you have made that up, if there is a source then please post it so I can see where these stats come from.)

Now back to the original post

And changing the desktop OS so it's more like a tablet OS has really helped save the PC market...

Well, it hasn't helped has it? This does not say it is the cause, but I am pretty sure if Windows 8 had had the Start Menu/Start screen option and some of the 8.1 features from the beginning (boot to desktop option) then it may not have declined quite so sharply. This is speculative, but the point still stands I did not say that Windows 8 is the sole cause.

To be honest though, I've done a reinstall of Windows 8 on my laptop again, giving it another try and I'm slowly getting used to it without a Start Menu. The Start Screen is horrible, however I am finding other ways round this. I've seen the 8.1 preview in action, so getting the desktop boot back will be nice and at least getting the same background on it will make the Start Screen less jarring.

And the Start Menu does still exist in the form of the Windows Key + x...

Not sure what to add really as there has yet to be a response to this relatively positive post.

 

[Tute]

I would calm down, certainly some posters in this forum are trying to goad others into a reaction and get them banned. I wouldn't rise to it.

I've never understood how the removal of the Start Menu is a good thing for the average consumer anyway, no matter what your viewpoint on Windows 8 is. I may not like Metro, but I would fully support giving people the choice through a Control Panel setting to use whatever they want to navigate around Windows.

Then again I can understand it from Microsoft's perspective - they hope that by getting you to use Metro you'll choose to keep using it when you come to purchase your next smartphone or tablet. A neat idea from a purely financial standpoint, but a lot of people are already locked into Android or iOS by this point, so it's far too late.

 

[theheyes]

I don't want to see anyone banned. I really don't look at usernames, I just look at posts. If anybody feels singled out then I apologize.

 

[RHS]

I have been using Windows 8 for two weeks now having migrated from Windows 7, in terms of stability its on a par with Windows 7 it is robust and reliable and has some nice features. I am not a fan of the new UI and I use 3rd party add-ons to get the feel that I like.

I think the new UI is clunky and makes poor use of the desktop real-estate, perhaps MS should have called it "Window 8" as in my view it best describes how the apps take over the screen. The UI is designed for tablets and I am confident it probably fulfils this role admirably however for desktop users we were let down by MS in my view.

Ultimately it will be up to you what you think and testing it out in a virtual machine is sound advice.

 

[Glaucus]

I'll tell you what is funny. It's the way that you, Elevon, theheyes and sometime gareth always post so quickly whenever someone says something slightly negative about Windows 8. Sometimes this happens without even reading the whole post (where I actually have something positive to say) and often taking what was posted out of context. It's sad and pathetic and just makes you all look insecure about your beloved Windows version.

Tablets and smartphones are seen as part of the PC market? By what clowns? I mean they are technically Personal Computers, but not PCs in the same sense so how can you clump them in the same section? (This is only a dig at you if you have made that up, if there is a source then please post it so I can see where these stats come from.)

.

Not at all, everything has some negatives, I've even given some myself. There's a difference.
And yes tablets and smartphones are very firmly a personal computer these days, so much so that it's shrinking the traditional market.
So no it's the clowns who think its all about desktops and laptops that have seen their companies decline and marketshare fall.

I would calm down, certainly some posters in this forum are trying to goad others into a reaction and get them banned. I wouldn't rise to it.

I've never understood how the removal of the Start Menu is a good thing for the average consumer anyway, no matter what your viewpoint on Windows 8 is. I may not like Metro, but I would fully support giving people the choice through a Control Panel setting to use whatever they want to navigate around Windows.

Then again I can understand it from Microsoft's perspective - they hope that by getting you to use Metro you'll choose to keep using it when you come to purchase your next smartphone or tablet. A neat idea from a purely financial standpoint, but a lot of people are already locked into Android or iOS by this point, so it's far too late.

A start menu does not fit into a hybrid OS, win8 is just the first step of a truly hybrid OS, holding onto legacy UI would get in the way of a hybrid Os, that is why it's gone and won't be returning, other than with third party apps.
It should be clear to everyone, especially with those graphs I've pointed why Ms had to make the change, and a hybrid Os is the right choice. As tablets and smartphones get more powerful and more prevalent, do public and corporations really want to design and use 2 or even three different apps, all having to be programmed specifically for a different OS. That's an incredible cost. Win8 isn't truly unified, but Ms aim is code one, run on every device.

 

[dogbert]

PC Users have been spoilt Microsoft Windows XP
The title is STILL in support...since August 2001 until April 2014

We forget the old days of the 90's when Pc's looked and felt diferent to use almost every year.

Over 10 years of using one operating system, means an entire generation of users came to accept and expect their OPERATING SYSTEM to be the unshifting foundation of their daily computer experiance.

Change job, change school, visit a library, buy 2nd hand or new PC etc...the XP desktop was always the same.

The XP desktop appearance evolved in Vista it was refined in Win7 and Win8 has now replaced the familiar desktop with a 'Metro' tiled APP interface - only vaguely familiar to those already using a Smartphone.

So it comes as no suprise that sales have been poor, vendors already hard hit in the economic down-turn have had a double blow. Becuase human nature does not like change.

People can adapt and adjust to new changes - but it takes energy to learn new skills and after 10 years of familiarity the familiar cry of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rings louder than ever.

If Microsoft want to include new features and tools; touch screen? Great, APPS Store? Wonderful. But give the user a choice - not all devices are the same. I think there should be an option after install to specificy the default load screen in Win8. Windows should have a setting to change the default load screen to be either the METRO OR DESKTOP by Default.

 

[Jonod2977]

PC Users have been spoilt Microsoft Windows XP
The title is STILL in support...since August 2001 until April 2014

We forget the old days of the 90's when Pc's looked and felt diferent to use almost every year.

Over 10 years of using one operating system, means an entire generation of users came to accept and expect their OPERATING SYSTEM to be the unshifting foundation of their daily computer experiance.

Change job, change school, visit a library, buy 2nd hand or new PC etc...the XP desktop was always the same.

The XP desktop appearance evolved in Vista it was refined in Win7 and Win8 has now replaced the familiar desktop with a 'Metro' tiled APP interface - only vaguely familiar to those already using a Smartphone.

So it comes as no suprise that sales have been poor, vendors already hard hit in the economic down-turn have had a double blow. Becuase human nature does not like change.

People can adapt and adjust to new changes - but it takes energy to learn new skills and after 10 years of familiarity the familiar cry of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rings louder than ever.

If Microsoft want to include new features and tools; touch screen? Great, APPS Store? Wonderful. But give the user a choice - not all devices are the same. I think there should be an option after install to specificy the default load screen in Win8. Windows should have a setting to change the default load screen to be either the METRO OR DESKTOP by Default.

+1

 

[Elevon]

I'll tell you what is funny. It's the way that you, Elevon, theheyes and sometime gareth always post so quickly whenever someone says something slightly negative about Windows 8. Sometimes this happens without even reading the whole post (where I actually have something positive to say) and often taking what was posted out of context. It's sad and pathetic and just makes you all look insecure about your beloved Windows version.

Tablets and smartphones are seen as part of the PC market? By what clowns? I mean they are technically Personal Computers, but not PCs in the same sense so how can you clump them in the same section? (This is only a dig at you if you have made that up, if there is a source then please post it so I can see where these stats come from.)

Now back to the original post



Well, it hasn't helped has it? This does not say it is the cause, but I am pretty sure if Windows 8 had had the Start Menu/Start screen option and some of the 8.1 features from the beginning (boot to desktop option) then it may not have declined quite so sharply. This is speculative, but the point still stands I did not say that Windows 8 is the sole cause.



Not sure what to add really as there has yet to be a response to this relatively positive post.

I think you are missing the point and taking it too personal,I did say old days desktop PCs had no competition,Win8 is their first hybrid OS that caters for everything,my point was it took Win7 many generations to get where it is and even then its mainly a desktop OS(it would be poor as a tablet or touchscreen with the old start menu),Win8 is a new direction for Microsoft since they want to expand or cover the entire hardware market if you like,any first generation of OS in this case Win8 being a hybrid will have some weakness and issues,but as always this can be improved in Win9,10,11 etc(hopefully) so its not a case of me defending Win8 but being honest and realistic.

I could also point out issues in my favourite Linux distros or any Windows(no OS is perfect) that I use but that is besides the point,what I was trying to say to you is Microsoft has a whole new market out there and in their wisdom a new direction ie hybrid OS is the direction they want to go.

Some people will always hate change or find something to moan about,that's human nature and nothing wrong in that,however you have to be realistic and expect changes to accomodate new hardware out there.
It's a bold move by Microsoft and being honest I can see why they have done this so can't really blame them.


It's funny when I put my honest point of view across I get called a Win8 fan or something,even though I use about five different operating systems from Linux(various distros) to Windows to Android,figure that one out.

 

[Matteysan]

This same old argument is still going on? Anyone would think there wasn't a desktop there no more & it was all metro...Especially how some of you are talking.

I see the start screen about twice a day in my daily tasks, I don't use Metro apps & I can do everything I did before on other Windows OS's.

I honestly cannot see the problem a lot of people are having. Microsoft had to adapt & this was probably the best way they could have done it. What would you all be like if there wasn't a desktop at all :O The world would end surely.

 

[Burnsy2023]

People can adapt and adjust to new changes - but it takes energy to learn new skills and after 10 years of familiarity the familiar cry of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" rings louder than ever.

The thing is, it's not just about change. Change that gives benefits and is a postive change I will embrace it whole heartedly. The issue that I have is that the previous start menu was designed and built with the mouse and keyboard at the heart of the development. The UX designers knew how people interact using this hardware and designed a system that fitted in with that paradigm.

Metro is not designed with the mouse and keyboard at the heart of the UX. It is inherently trying to be a good touch interface and if you want to cater for both you will always have to make comprimises. Mice are accurate pointing devices and fingers are not. The size of buttons need to be larger with fingers and can be much smaller with mice. If you make buttons big for touch screen devices you will inherently make it more clunky for mice.

Windows 8 isn't just about being adverse to change. It's about the metro interface compromising on the keyboard and mouse interface in favour of touch. Either you accept that these changes are going to mean a less then optimal interface for both sets of users, or you allow the old interface for the old way of working and a setting to allow touch for touch devices. Microsoft haven't given this option so either I decide if interface will be good enough for what I need to do or that Win7's deisgn better suits the hardware that I user to interact.

People seem to say that Windows 8 is a better interface and for many people it may be, but for the traditional users, it's not designed for you and so it'll always be a compromise.

 

[linktoinsanity]

Not at all, everything has some negatives, I've even given some myself. There's a difference.
And yes tablets and smartphones are very firmly a personal computer these days, so much so that it's shrinking the traditional market.
So no it's the clowns who think its all about desktops and laptops that have seen their companies decline and marketshare fall.

Yes, all smartphones and tablets run Intel Pentium, Core ix and Celeron processors these days and have a keyboard and mouse attached...

 

[Glaucus]

Disagree especially with smal tile size added in 8.1 which is pretty much identical to desktop icon size.
Metro is astart menu, it's bigger and clear, displays information unlike start menu, has a better search. Mouse doesn't become less accurate or usless just becuase the buttons are bigger. And dispute being bigger, displays far more info and in a far more organised way. 8.1 just makes that even better for mouse.
A lot of it is down to familiarisation and people just not liking change.

I spend most of my time in desktop mode, but will still boot to metro in 8.1, why wouldn't you want too. Well maybe some who are running outlook or similar and purely work. Turn on pc and I want to see emails, weather, if there's any new youtube videos etc, which are all instantly viewable in metro without opening an app or webpage.

 

[Glaucus]

Yes, all smartphones and tablets run Intel Pentium, Core ix and Celeron processors these days and have a keyboard and mouse attached...

because thos things are needed for a pc what s tepid updated concept and opinion you have. You have the same opinionated the companies which have seen there marketshare slashed.come into the real world and you'll find none of those things are essential.

 

[linktoinsanity]

because thos things are needed for a pc what s tepid updated concept and opinion you have. You have the same opinionated the companies which have seen there marketshare slashed.come into the real world and you'll find none of those things are essential.

How did you get the Man of honour title may I ask? You certainly are not showing me at all that you are.

And your sentence doesn't make sense.

"You have a stupid opinion." (of course, you've spelt it wrong, you not using a proper keyboard?) Grow up and stop stooping to such low levels.

And Burnsy has hit the nail on the head. I think anyway.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Disagree especially with smal tile size added in 8.1 which is pretty much identical to desktop icon size.
Metro is astart menu, it's bigger and clear, displays information unlike start menu, has a better search. Mouse doesn't become less accurate or usless just becuase the buttons are bigger. And dispute being bigger, displays far more info and in a far more organised way. 8.1 just makes that even better for mouse.
A lot of it is down to familiarisation and people just not liking change.

You mention about the fact the new start menu displays more information - which is correct, but when you have a 30" screen it is using space that could and should be used for other things so I can continue to multitask. Multitaksing on a tablet device is difficult considering the screen size and so the OS is designed to take this into account. That's great for tablets, but is simply irritating for people who want to use all the screen real estate they have optimally.

I'm not saying you can't use a keyboard and mouse on Win8, far from it, but the traditional interface has been refined and tweaked for nearly two decades to make it as close to perfect as you can get within the restraints you have. Metro is never going to be as good, simply because it is trying to work for two very different input paradigms and hasn't had the time to evolve. I can't see how you can have an interface that will be optimal for both imput devices, they are just too inherantly different. That's not a bad thing though, right tool for the right job and all that.

 

[Glaucus]

It's very correct.
Your opinion that a pc can only be a desktop, is extremely outdated and isn't based on anything.
Pc is personal computer, nothing you mentioned is integral to a personal computer.

 

[Elevon]

The thing is, it's not just about change. Change that gives benefits and is a postive change I will embrace it whole heartedly. The issue that I have is that the previous start menu was designed and built with the mouse and keyboard at the heart of the development. The UX designers knew how people interact using this hardware and designed a system that fitted in with that paradigm.

Metro is not designed with the mouse and keyboard at the heart of the UX. It is inherently trying to be a good touch interface and if you want to cater for both you will always have to make comprimises. Mice are accurate pointing devices and fingers are not. The size of buttons need to be larger with fingers and can be much smaller with mice. If you make buttons big for touch screen devices you will inherently make it more clunky for mice.

Windows 8 isn't just about being adverse to change. It's about the metro interface compromising on the keyboard and mouse interface in favour of touch. Either you accept that these changes are going to mean a less then optimal interface for both sets of users, or you allow the old interface for the old way of working and a setting to allow touch for touch devices. Microsoft haven't given this option so either I decide if interface will be good enough for what I need to do or that Win7's deisgn better suits the hardware that I user to interact.

People seem to say that Windows 8 is a better interface and for many people it may be, but for the traditional users, it's not designed for you and so it'll always be a compromise.

I can see where you are coming from in that comment so I'll give my honest opinion on Win8,Metro wise sure its great as a touchscreen but also fine with mouse and keyboard(I don't have a touchscreen and only use mouse and keyboard) which is very versatile as you know in that regards .

Win8 lets the user decide what he wants to us ie touch or mouse and keyboard which I'm fine with.


Old start button menu missing on old desktop UI is another culprit again its not needed IMHO (I don't miss it)and would be poor for touchscreen users hence Metro Start,desktop users can use Win+X, old desktop UI taskbar,shortcuts and Metro Start(only click away not even a second).

You forget customisation ie make Win8 work for you ,customise Metro and old desktop UI to your needs that's what they are there for and what I have done, Win8 has pretty good customisation and I've everything within one or two clicks even shut down and reboot without a third party start button mod.

I can see your point of view and 8.1 will have some improvements however Win8 is still very easy to use with good old keyboard and mouse even for a desktop user.


Forgive but I do feel sometimes that nowadays operating systems like Win8 are too easy but people still hate or find something to moan about,their right however but Win8 is not rocket science or even hard to use.
I guess being old timer from DOS days its a walk in the park what we have nowadays,roll on Win9 and 10, whole new topics and something new for me to play with .

 

[Burnsy2023]

How did you get the Man of honour title may I ask? You certainly are not showing me at all that you are.

And your sentence doesn't make sense.

"You have a stupid opinion." (of course, you've spelt it wrong, you not using a proper keyboard?) Grow up and stop stooping to such low levels.

And Burnsy has hit the nail on the head. I think anyway.

Wind your neck in, there's no need for that. Glaucus is right that the concept of a PC is very much blurred now with tablets. You could concivable get a MS Surface and use that as a laptop replacement despite having an ARM processor and non traditional PC hardware. Hardware doesn't define a PC, the use of it by end users does.

 

[Glaucus]

You mention about the fact the new start menu displays more information - which is correct, but when you have a 30" screen it is using space that could and should be used for other things so I can continue to multitask. Multitaksing on a tablet device is difficult considering the screen size and so the OS is designed to take this into account. That's great for tablets, but is simply irritating for people who want to use all the screen real estate they have optimally.

I'm not saying you can't use a keyboard and mouse on Win8, far from it, but the traditional interface has been refined and tweaked for nearly two decades to make it as close to perfect as you can get within the restraints you have. Metro is never going to be as good, simply because it is trying to work for two very different input paradigms and hasn't had the time to evolve. I can't see how you can have an interface that will be optimal for both imput devices, they are just too inherantly different. That's not a bad thing though, right tool for the right job and all that.

This hasn't change though.
You still have right click menu-x or what ever its called which you can add stuff, you still have taskbar and you still have drop lists or whatever they are called, there's hasn't been a great need for start menu for years, people just never bothered using the new features in vista/w7 as much as they should.
About the only one which I would consider annoying is when opening a new program which is infrequently unused. The sequence is identical. Click start button/menu, type pres entre. Nothing's change in the sequence, but now the screen will flicker a couple of times. This again is solved in win8.1 by and large by being able to set screen background the same throughout the two UI. So you won't get the screen flicker.

 

[Burnsy2023]

I can see where you are coming from in that comment so I'll give my honest opinion on Win8,Metro wise sure its great as a touchscreen but also fine with mouse and keyboard(I don't have a touchscreen and only use mouse and keyboard) which is very versatile as you know in that regards .

Win8 lets the user decide what he wants to us ie touch or mouse and keyboard which I'm fine with.

I think your vocabulary that you've used here kind of proves my point. Yes it is "fine" and for many people it is "good enough" and some people may even find it "nice". But it's not exemplary, it's not an exceptional experience and it's certainly not optimal. I think for the keyboard and mouse, Win 7 is closer to all of these things due to the time and effort to refine it for that use case.