Work and career progression apathy.. Is it much more prevalent now?

[Mysterae_]

I've done what many here call the step down or step back. Previously I had a management job that I liked, travelled the country and felt like I was making a difference, I actually thought I could progress even higher up the ladder. Then one performance review changed that. Despite the sacrifices, the time away from family with the 14hr days, meeting target upon target and the added responsibility of managing a team, it wasn't enough apparently. If that's what I did in the job I was in, what was I going to have to commit to do for a promotion away from middle management?! It might be a bit melodramatic to say I was broken but yet I carried on.

That was until an opportunity arose and I walked away from that job much to the surprise of my peers and seniors. It was a major step down, the career killing kind. Moved the family hundreds of miles away and started again. It's taken a few years for the salary to be close to what I was earning previously, the job satisfaction is near nil and I feel about as important as another cog in the machine. I miss elements of my previous job, the variety, the feeling of importance even if it was purely self-delusional.

However, it's been fantastic for the family, I have a lot more free time with little to no responsibility and when I leave work each day it doesn't follow me home - but now I have to create and invent things to do to fill the void.

 

[adam cool dude]

Share the link then!

I've got 2 years left in my current job and am looking for a change. I've always enjoyed driving, being out on my own etc. I used to drive HGV2 many years ago, but never went for the Class 1 That being said, i had a drive of my brother Class 1 and it terrified me. What are you driving?

I also have funding through my job for courses, any recommendations for a decent driver training place?

I did my training through a local HGV training place in my area. Altogether was around 3-4k but I did it myself and wanted it done as quickly as possible. It is a lot cheaper now as you can go straight to class 1 whereas before you had to do your class 2 first as government changed laws due to driver shortage. I believe the government bootcamp is still available if you look it up.

I am doing Class 1 fridges. Nice easy clean work with enough variety. I go all over from London to Wales to the Northeast and Northwest. I prefer this than the same route everyday that some of the old timers do. Once my son starts going to school in September I might be looking to go into livestock as that seems to pay the best around here.

Despite what outsiders say about it being easy as you only "learn" for two weeks it is pretty much a baptism of fire though once you get your licence. First month was a total brainwash as unlike a car you need to be on your wits as otherwise you will smash stuff. I would come home mentally exhausted every day. It took about 6 months before I felt at ease with reversing and near enough two years before I felt good in my own skin and could go anywhere without feeling anxious. Now it all feels very natural and I would even say easy for the most part but that is a bit like everything really. A lot of people do give it up quickly because of that but is best to stick at it and find a place you are comfortable with. I went in knowing exactly what to expect so wasn't disappointed.

It isn't for everyone though as the hours are long. A 10 hour day is an early finish and anything under 6 hours total driving can be quite rare. I offset this by working less days so only 4 days a week so my hours are reasonable but sometimes I do a 5 day week as overtime and rack up 60 hours easy although the actual working time can be a lot lower. On a bad day I can spend up to four and half hours in a distribution centre being unloaded and people wonder why the productivity is low in this country! I bring a laptop and Nintendo Switch with me everyday so try to get my lazy stuff out the way during work time so when I am off I leave that behind and am more productive. In my mind that also makes up for the long days as I am doing stuff at work that I would usually do at home if that makes any sense like browsing Youtube and playing games.

Just like every job it does have its downside. You get treat like crap by a lot of people at various sites but it is mainly people who just hate their lives. I just smile and crack on in that regard. Traffic can also get annoying but as long as you accept that a 2 and half hour journey to London is realistically going to take 3 and half hours then you are golden. The selfishness of the rat race in London also isn't nice but once you learn to accept it and not get wound up it is okay. I much prefer driving up North to places like Yorkshire, Manchester and Liverpool etc.

It is very easy of me to say I am comfortable as I have largely avoided the huge cost of living issues that are associated with pretty much everyone south of Peterborough.

 

[jaybee]

Where I am currently we have a fairly flat structure and minimal opportunities for promotion. I've done a management role before. I was good at it, but just felt like my job became going to meetings and talking, without ever really doing anything. I feel the vast majority of middle managers are massively over paid and add little to no value. Same with project managers.

I can project manage better than 99% of the ones I've ever worked with, yet I choose not to be a PM, or a manager despite that they are paid more....why? Because the role would drain the life out of me. It's boring AF. I would feel like a fraud. I hate talking the talk, but never walking the walk. I don't think I could ever be in a non technical IT role. For the right money, aka a lot more, maybe... But the added rubbish you have to do with managing people I'd struggle with because I'm not a people person in the corporate world, and I don't like motivating lost causes that I didn't employ myself. I've watched my bosses employ complete gibbons over the years which winds me up. Wastes my time having to work with them. Where am I going with this rant... Err... Basically I'm at an age where my BS detector takes no prisoners and Id be fired as a manager within a week for speaking truths. I really should go contracting as I hate the baggage of employee roles but where I'm at currently has good benefits.

So I'm basically paid ok ish, for a tech IT role at a company that has good benefits. My boss is probably on about 20-25% more than me but I don't want his job. This will sound silly but it would weaken me. I'd lose my technical abilities in time and I feel like if I ever had to seek employment elsewhere I'd be less employable as wouldn't be current with tooling and software. I feel like going down the management path shuts a lot of doors behind you in that regard...

So am I happy with where I'm at? In terms of overall package, how hard I have to work and work life balance...yes. I'm terms of earnings...not really. I'll always want more because this is the UK and it's tough to live a good life without earning a lot. How much do I want more? Well to entice me to do a management role would have to be over 30% pay rise to even get me interested. To entice to go contracting with the risks involved, I'd have to first have a money buffer, and the day rate would have to be high and ideally outside IR35.

 

[Trifid]

150k+ ain’t mega salary territory. Don’t get me wrong it’s good. But when you take the overall tax rate, loss of personal allowance and all the benefits like childcare you loose. It doesn’t allow you to live life without cares . Esp in London etc.

To me £50k+ is a decent salary. £100k+ is a comfortable salary. £150k+ is a good salary. £300k+ takes away most cares. £1m+ is mega salary territory.

I view it as:
£30k minimum wage, anything less then this and you are very dependant on others
£50k can get by reasonably comfortably and not be dependant on others to survive
£75k you get either a nice car or a little nicer house location
£100k+ invest into retirement accounts to avoid the tax trap or have a nice car and house and hope you don't ever become unemployed

 

[bakes0310]

I view it as:
£30k minimum wage, anything less then this and you are very dependant on others
£50k can get by reasonably comfortably and not be dependant on others to survive
£75k you get either a nice car or a little nicer house location
£100k+ invest into retirement accounts to avoid the tax trap or have a nice car and house and hope you don't ever become unemployed

You need to live in Somerset, I'm guessing your in London.
Me and the wife we were both on about £18k about 5 years ago and we bought a 4 bedroom house in a nice small town. We paid our bills and slowly done the house up (still plenty to do).
Now I'm on a lot more than that now but cost of living and mortgage went up but still doing okay.
If I was on £50k we would have no money worries but I guess me and the wife don't live expensive lifestyles, we consider holidays a luxury.

Sorry not sure what my point was, I guess it's amazing what people need to get by in different areas and London is mental.

 

[mitch212k]

Fair observation. I think it's more prevalent, yes. People value work/life balance more than they once did, and part-time work seems a lot more popular these days. Tax brackets also don't particularly incentivise (sp?) full time work after a point

 

[ivrytwr3]

I did my training through a local HGV training place in my area. Altogether was around 3-4k but I did it myself and wanted it done as quickly as possible. It is a lot cheaper now as you can go straight to class 1 whereas before you had to do your class 2 first as government changed laws due to driver shortage. I believe the government bootcamp is still available if you look it up.

Thank for taking the time to post

I'd be happy on the motorways etc, but towns and reversing scare the hell out of me - as you say time x experience = competence! Is there much work for class 2's?

 

[adam cool dude]

Thank for taking the time to post

I'd be happy on the motorways etc, but towns and reversing scare the hell out of me - as you say time x experience = competence! Is there much work for class 2's?

Yes plenty and it normally pays better because there is more shortage as the physical work is a lot more. Everyone wants to be a big boy in an artic and in class 2 you generally do a lot more deliveries.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

I’m noticing this more and more with younger employees too. They used to be the keen ones who would take on lots of extra responsibilities. They don’t anymore. We all value our work life balance. It’s become so difficult to recruit in our sector that we are shortening our working day. This is on top of already having about 18 or so weeks off a year.

 

[potatolord]

Interesting thread.

I'm mid 50s and aiming to get a better job, mainly as I believe I can have more interesting work.

I'm in the lucky position of having more kids later on life, so dropping down is not an option for me.

 

[adam cool dude]

I’m noticing this more and more with younger employees too. They used to be the keen ones who would take on lots of extra responsibilities. They don’t anymore. We all value our work life balance. It’s become so difficult to recruit in our sector that we are shortening our working day. This is on top of already having about 18 or so weeks off a year.

I think because everyone now is just generally taking the mickey for the shareholder with little thought to the middle.

Take my old job as an example. I would need to hold a welfare meeting, performance review or disciplinary hearing. I would ring to my lovely H/R lady in the office who would pretty much prepare everything. All I would have to do is hand out a notice to organise the hearing time. Go to the hearing then we would discuss the evidence in front of us and go from there. I would also have H/R with me to explain any queries regarding employment law so I wouldn't do anything stupid.

Roll on a few years the company I work for gets rid of 90% of HR and makes it all remote and online which basically shifts all the work load onto me whilst the company is saving hundreds of thousands if not millions a year by getting rid of most HR from the sites across the country. All the workload is shoved on my lap as a result and I get zero pay increase for that.

Multiply that across training and development departments and your job just becomes untenable for the money you are getting paid. I am sure you can copy and paste this across all other forms of industry whether it be teaching, NHS etc.

The only time I could see myself putting in the real effort would be a small business where I know the CEO on a personal level and he can see what I bring to the game.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

I think because everyone now is just generally taking the mickey for the shareholder with little thought to the middle.

Take my old job as an example. I would need to hold a welfare meeting, performance review or disciplinary hearing. I would ring to my lovely H/R lady in the office who would pretty much prepare everything. All I would have to do is hand out a notice to organise the hearing time. Go to the hearing then we would discuss the evidence in front of us and go from there. I would also have H/R with me to explain any queries regarding employment law so I wouldn't do anything stupid.

Roll on a few years the company I work for gets rid of 90% of HR and makes it all remote and online which basically shifts all the work load onto me whilst the company is saving hundreds of thousands if not millions a year by getting rid of most HR from the sites across the country. All the workload is shoved on my lap as a result and I get zero pay increase for that.

Multiply that across training and development departments and your job just becomes untenable for the money you are getting paid. I am sure you can copy and paste this across all other forms of industry whether it be teaching, NHS etc.

The only time I could see myself putting in the real effort would be a small business where I know the CEO on a personal level and he can see what I bring to the game.

Yup. We’re told we are short of money this year, so no/little pay rise to be expected. Meanwhile it’s amazing what crap they find money for in other areas. Apparently we should be ‘thankful’ for the ‘significant investment’ in a training day that none of us asked for.

 

[413x]

I think because everyone now is just generally taking the mickey for the shareholder with little thought to the middle.

Take my old job as an example. I would need to hold a welfare meeting, performance review or disciplinary hearing. I would ring to my lovely H/R lady in the office who would pretty much prepare everything. All I would have to do is hand out a notice to organise the hearing time. Go to the hearing then we would discuss the evidence in front of us and go from there. I would also have H/R with me to explain any queries regarding employment law so I wouldn't do anything stupid.

Roll on a few years the company I work for gets rid of 90% of HR and makes it all remote and online which basically shifts all the work load onto me whilst the company is saving hundreds of thousands if not millions a year by getting rid of most HR from the sites across the country. All the workload is shoved on my lap as a result and I get zero pay increase for that.

Multiply that across training and development departments and your job just becomes untenable for the money you are getting paid. I am sure you can copy and paste this across all other forms of industry whether it be teaching, NHS etc.

The only time I could see myself putting in the real effort would be a small business where I know the CEO on a personal level and he can see what I bring to the game.

Yeah I don't really know what it was like 30 years ago.
But it does seem that if shareholders aren't seeing constant growth.. Its not good enough.

Maybe the average Joe has just had enough.

"what's point working my butt off for a few hundred more a month when shareholders are getting millions"

 

[Stu999]

Maybe the average Joe has just had enough.

Things like having no realistic chance of buying a house will do that to a person.

 

[Richie]

Absolutely embarrassing seeing people delegate work that they cannot do.

Not really... Being a manager doesn't necessitate you being able to do the job. You are there to manage, not necessarily do and it can often be a different skill set.

I'd imagine a manager at an engineering place will hand out jobs that he has no idea how to do - welding, plating, electrical etc... is it embarrassing that they delegate the work of welding when their background is in electrics and they've never welded before?

 

[Lumeycom]

I'm close to 50 now and have all but given up any want or need to progress. I'm comfortable financially, nowhere near "rich" or well off. I think the older I get the more i value my time and this is a big driver in me stepping back a bit and settling.

 

[DarrenM343]

Yeah I don't really know what it was like 30 years ago.
But it does seem that if shareholders aren't seeing constant growth.. Its not good enough.

Maybe the average Joe has just had enough.

"what's point working my butt off for a few hundred more a month when shareholders are getting millions"

Then become a shareholder is the advice I would give.
Shareholders provide a service and take on risk. Maybe more attention should be given to CEO salaries of underperforming British companies where back in the 70's the average CEO salary was like 14x the average wage of an employee at the company where as today it's around 140x.

Not really... Being a manager doesn't necessitate you being able to do the job. You are there to manage, not necessarily do and it can often be a different skill set.

I'd imagine a manager at an engineering place will hand out jobs that he has no idea how to do - welding, plating, electrical etc... is it embarrassing that they delegate the work of welding when their background is in electrics and they've never welded before?

Depends really. A good manager will know enough about something to be able to manage it.
I've seen bad examples over the years. As a freelancer I once worked on a project with someone managing it who had no idea. Their background was in something else. THey were always asking the wrong questions. What made it worse was that they just weren't very approachable either. Which reminds me that career progression into management to earn more money isn't always a good thing for the company.

 

[adam cool dude]

Yeah I don't really know what it was like 30 years ago.
But it does seem that if shareholders aren't seeing constant growth.. Its not good enough.

Maybe the average Joe has just had enough.

"what's point working my butt off for a few hundred more a month when shareholders are getting millions"

It has been like that for a long long time though. I used to get paid considerably more than the people below me but as costs have gotten more and more the people below are starting to get squeezed more to the point where the middle classes are now the ones in the firing line to keep shareholders happy.

Not really... Being a manager doesn't necessitate you being able to do the job. You are there to manage, not necessarily do and it can often be a different skill set.

I'd imagine a manager at an engineering place will hand out jobs that he has no idea how to do - welding, plating, electrical etc... is it embarrassing that they delegate the work of welding when their background is in electrics and they've never welded before?

We had an Engineering manager who was most likely on 80-100k. A lot of subordinates were far more skilled than him but on half the wage. It would cause resentment and a lot wouldn't basically listen. The work ethic between the engineers stank mostly. Historically the skilled person would naturally make the step up to become the manager whereas now they just get people in with a degree who really do not have a clue.

 

[BDEE]

I am VP level in Banking, looking to move to Director.

I grafted for 15 years to get to VP. Hope to make Director within 10 in that grade.

What I see now is an industry where senior grade roles are slipping away owing to transformation, so this has created less opportunity for those wanting to progress. So you would think that those in lower grade jobs would be wanting to graft to show what they can do and put themslves in the best possible position to progress, right....

.... Well no, what I actually see is a lot of people wanting the grade, wanting the salary, but wanting to do less to get there. It's quite astounding.

I am an advocate of work-life balance, working to live and not living to work etc, but at the same time you have to get real and realise the opportunities don't come to those who just want to "do the minimum" and just scrape by. I put more hours in than I am contracted for, but I am never asked to - There are days I just want to crack on and get extra done. I am under no illusion that in a big corporate there will be no loyalty when my role is eventually automated, but it isn't loyalty to the company that drives me, its just my own drive to want to do a good job and make hay while the sun shines....


MD and above... Not really sure yet, ask me in another 10 years.

 

[jaybee]

The managers in my company are the most replaceable people we have in my opinion. In fact a lot have been recently. There is such an imbalance of renumeration towards managers and project managers over other staff across IT roles. Where I work, there are middle managers on 6 figures that are crusing along not really having any impact. Then there are technical architects, Devs, dbas, SMEs, which make the wheels keep turning seemingly unrecognized, never in any of the monthly recognition award things. Yet some managers are sometimes on multiples of their salaries. Some PMs we've employed on 1k day rates, who couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery.

It's just the way corporate hierarchy is I guess.