working for your dole......

Neil79 said:
Ah but the thing is people have been doing volunteering and the jobcenters/work programmes have been pulling them out to do WORK. You have to do what the government wants you to do when it comes to unpaid work not what you want to do.

Remember the museum story?
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To be honest it strikes me as a return to the Dickensian Work-house ethic. Either you scrub the floors or you don't get any gruel.. Scrubbing the floor was never anything other than a pointless task designed to keep the poor occupied. (metaphorically speaking)

It just strikes me as being a completely pointless exercise in regards to generating any prospect of meaningful employment. The only string attached appears to the threat of losing benefits and working for next to nothing. It's a scheme that has more to do with appeasing the baying masses than actually achieving anything worthwhile.
 
DampDog said:
To be honest it strikes me as a return to the Dickensian Work-house ethic. Either you scrub the floors or you don't get any gruel.. Scrubbing the floor was never anything other than a pointless task designed to keep the poor occupied.

It just strikes me as being a completely pointless exercise in regards to generating any prospect of meaningful employment. The only string attached appears to the threat of losing benefits and working for next to nothing. It's a scheme that has more to do with appeasing the baying masses than actually achieving anything worthwhile.
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so as a country we just forget the whole thing and carry on as we are, remember we are talking about the career claimants, not the honest joes that have been unlucky and are doing their best to get a job.
 
nick.lidgett said:
yeah but they don't work for minimum wage do they,
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I never said they did, you are the one who erroneously used them as an example.

nick.lidgett said:
if minimum wage went up then everybody elses wage would go up accordingly, people in skilled jobs wont sit back and accept they have to earn the same as unskilled workers are they?
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The depends entirely on if you change the rewards for the work done across the board, or just increase the minimum wage in isolation.

nick.lidgett said:
and the builder isn't gunna charge you the same £100 a day now if he knows you are on atleast £13 an hour is he?
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Are you implying that builders charge based on the income of the customers?, are you sure about that?.

nick.lidgett said:
Super markets are not going to lower prices if every one is earning more

money goes to money,

Try harder.
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Supermarkets charge whatever they can to make money to remain profitable compared to it's competitors.

If Tesco suddenly decided to double it's prices in line with the wage increases & ASDA didn't (as the wages for the lowest paid staff are only part of the total running costs, ergo it could maintain reasonable profitability levels) - guess which supermarket would go out of business by the end of the week?.

Also, where exactly do you think those extra wages go which the people suddenly have? - I'll tell you where - right back into the economy, to pay for goods & services & buying billions upon billions worth of products.

Unlike the richest in society those who earn around the average spend pretty much 100% of that money back into the local economy.

The below video should help explain it to you.

 
Ok elmarko i will tell you the words you want to hear and then we can get back on topic;

You are right, i am wrong, we should double the minimum wage its a terrific idea, you are so much smarter me, im not worthy of your superior knoweledge, please forgive me
 
nick.lidgett said:
Ok elmarko i will tell you the words you want to hear and then we can get back on topic;

You are right, i am wrong, we should double the minimum wage its a terrific idea, you are so much smarter me, im not worthy of your superior knoweledge, please forgive me
Click to expand...
bwnl2Il.jpg
 
nick.lidgett said:
so as a country we just forget the whole thing and carry on as we are, remember we are talking about the career claimants, not the honest joes that have been unlucky and are doing their best to get a job.
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And you really think that is true? That everyone who has been out of work for say 12 months or more is there by choice? Nothing to do with a worldwide economic collapse, whole swathes of industry vanishing in some areas. Add to that those with disabilities that the system has now thrown into the search for work. It's difficult enough job hunting if you are fit and well 24/7 If you have a limited ability to work then you are at a huge disadvantage when hunting for work. The notion that all employers embrace equal opportunities is simply guff.

While I agree that some are there by choice, tarring everyone with the same brush is simplistic.
 
DampDog said:
To be honest it strikes me as a return to the Dickensian Work-house ethic. Either you scrub the floors or you don't get any gruel.. Scrubbing the floor was never anything other than a pointless task designed to keep the poor occupied. (metaphorically speaking)

It just strikes me as being a completely pointless exercise in regards to generating any prospect of meaningful employment. The only string attached appears to the threat of losing benefits and working for next to nothing. It's a scheme that has more to do with appeasing the baying masses than actually achieving anything worthwhile.
Click to expand...

Agreed. All these 'work programme' schemes boil down to nothing more than stealth tactics to circumvent minimum wage. If there is a job to be done "Litter Picker" then make it a job and pay it a wage. Either pay the job as due, or scrap minimum wage. You cannot have a system that does both; its dishonest, reckless and counter productive.
 
DampDog said:
And you really think that is true? That everyone who has been out of work for say 12 months or more is there by choice? Nothing to do with a worldwide economic collapse, whole swathes of industry vanishing in some areas. Add to that those with disabilities that the system has now thrown into the search for work. It's difficult enough job hunting if you are fit and well 24/7 If you have a limited ability to work then you are at a huge disadvantage when hunting for work. The notion that all employers embrace equal opportunities is simply guff.

While I agree that some are there by choice, tarring everyone with the same brush is simplistic.
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I dont see how any of that relates to what you quoted me saying, i said about targeting career claimants, how is that tarring everyone with the same brush?
Have you not read any of my other posts?
 
nick.lidgett said:
its for all the other benefits too, that people on here seem reluctant to acknowledge mainly because if the scheme is done fairly there is no reasonable argument against it
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It's not for all the other benefits - it's just for those seeking work and claiming unemployment related benefits (i.e. JSA, ESA or Universal Credit).

For example you aren't going to see pensioners forced into working at a charity, you aren't going to see the disabled working at Tesco and you aren't going to see those in recpt of tax credits being forced to do community work.

If the government press ahead with this then they need to rename Job SEEKERS Allowance and Employment SUPPORT Allowance to something like "COMPULSORY state funded work programme" - because that's what it will be, you know, like after the mills closed in Lancashire so they forced people to build the parks and roads in return for social support.

nick.lidgett said:
I dont see how any of that relates to what you quoted me saying, i said about targeting career claimants, how is that tarring everyone with the same brush?
Have you not read any of my other posts?
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So adopt a policy that targets that 1% then, rather than penalising the other 99% and let the 99% carry on doing what they are supposed to be doing - i.e. looking for work and re-training.
 
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Where is the middle ground in it all. A system that does not enable generations of dependants and at the same time allow for jobless to get by during time of unemployment.

Its not just the dole though its all the welfare benefits that need to be looked at imo.

Ive always suggested just putting a time limit on it of say 1 year and then just stop it completely. People are quick to find solutions when they have to, but if they are never put in to that position they dont have the incentive.
 
amigafan2003 said:
It's not for all the other benefits - it's just for those seeking work and claiming unemployment related benefits (i.e. JSA, ESA or Universal Credit).

For example you aren't going to see pensioners forced into working at a charity, you aren't going to see the disabled working at Tesco and you aren't going to see those in recpt of tax credits being forced to do community work.
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Omg i didnt mean all the other benefits available to everybody, i ment all the other benefits the long term claimants get i.e housing etc
 
nick.lidgett said:
Omg i didnt mean all the other benefits available to everybody, i ment all the other benefits the long term claimants get i.e housing etc
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Housing benefits get paid to those who are employed as well.

Or are you suggesting they also should do work placements in return for the housing benefit they receive?
 
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