World in Conflict "virtually identical" on PS3/360

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kdd said:
Becuase sony got cell on the cheap like sony got the g70 on the cheap
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LOL - you really should research before posting. Sony spent millions and millions on the research and development of the cell processor along with IBM and Toshiba. Would have been infinately cheaper for them to go to intel or amd and say "design me a cpu" :D
 
Joebob said:
LOL - you really should research before posting. Sony spent millions and millions on the research and development of the cell processor along with IBM and Toshiba. Would have been infinately cheaper for them to go to intel or amd and say "design me a cpu" :D
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Sony didn't design cell ibm did.
 
Mike Acton of Insomniac explained a comment regarding "experimenting with pre-vertex shaders on the SPUs".

"1. Transfer some of the load from the GPU to the SPUs.

2. Minimize complexity of the GPU Shaders. i.e. Rather than making more GPU vertex shaders, or more complex GPU vertex shaders, we'll just edit the data directly from the SPU before the GPU gets it. This allows us to "disguise" complex vertex shader code as a simple shader from the GPU's perspective.

3. Run parts of the complete vertex shader code at different rates. An (SPU Vertex Shader, or Pre-Vertex Shader) does not necessarily have to run in lock-stop with the (GPU Vertex Shader). It could run at half-rate or lower, depending on the data and the need.

We're still experimenting with different approaches and places to do this, but we've had good success so far. For example, we used this idea in RCF to handle UV animations - textures weren't animated on the GPU, the UVs were animated before the stream got to the (GPU Vertex Shader) so it could use the same GPU shaders as any stream that did not have UV animation."
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Two minutes to find that. I feel shame in posting it though, this argument has ruined this thread.
 
kdd said:
Sony didn't design cell ibm did.
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Sony funded but did not design. It took the cheap option basically, sony will also make money through other uses of the cell though it's hardly the gaming uber chip sony make out.
 
kdd said:
Sony didn't design cell ibm did.
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and a quick search reveals

wikipedia said:
Cell is a microprocessor architecture jointly developed by Sony Computer Entertainment, Toshiba, and IBM, an alliance known as "STI". The architectural design and first implementation were carried out at the STI Design Center in Austin, Texas over a four-year period beginning March 2001 on a budget reported by IBM as approaching US$400 million
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(microprocessor)
 
Sareth said:
Two minutes to find that. I feel shame in posting it though, this argument has ruined this thread.
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I know, and the only point i wanted to make was that graphically the 360 is the more powerful console, no amount of cpu offloading can make up for the g70's out of dateness.
 
Demon said:
That makes no sense
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The cell can't help out with graphics as it has no graphics functions onboard, how is that possible?
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At first, I wondered what one of the Dev's was on about when he said a design that would work well on the PS3 would also benefit the 360..

When I say Asymmetrical, I am referring to the whole system..

Traditionally, you code you game engine, and it effectively does a load of processing on the CPU, throwing data out finally to the graphics card (I know this is quite simplistic, but bear with me)..
This 'scales' well to multiprocessor systems without too much pain, you can split your code up into chunks that can be run in parallel, and 'farm' them out to the other processors. You haven't had to re-write too much, just re-organised to some degree, and decided which bits of code to run on which processor...

This approach works well on the 360, becuase all processors are identical, you have 6 threads over 3 CPU's and all can handle any of the individual bits of code in the same way they did before...
This doesn't work on the PS3, because the PPE and SPE's are very different, you can't just split your traditional code into sections and farm them out, the SPE's are that good at normal integer computation. You have to redesign your code into 'normal' and 'data intensive' and farm the nnumber crunching elements out to the SPE's and the other stuff to the PPE, and getting the throughput in your design is a real headache.

The problem with both of these is that you are increasing the amount CPU resource you have, but with no further thought, all you end up doing is generating more data for your weaker components, such as your GPU then it can handle..

What developers 'say' they are now doing is approaching it from a different angle, they are looking at the system from a whole, and using the multiprocessor environment in a much more efficient way, they know that the DATA IO on the consoles (data from BR/DVD/HDD and data out to the graphics card) are bottlenecks, and so use the 'spare' CPU power to augment/help out where these bottlenecks are. A good example of this, is developers using an SPE to do geometric work, such as pre-culling, taking this from the RSX improves the overall graphics throughput..
Since both consoles are CPU 'heavy', which means they can generate much more data then the GPU's can handle, both can benefit from taking 'chunks' of the CPU resource, and adding these to the GPU to provide a synergistic effect.

It's all IMO, and based on reading around on Beyond 3D and the odd article here and there, I am no developer so it may be all rubbish...
 
Ulfhedjinn said:
The Cell processor wouldn't do graphics anywhere near as well as a specialised GPU but it'd still help out.
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So would it be accurate to describe the SPUs as a jack of all trades but a master of none? You can assign them any task and they will be able to perform it to an acceptable standard?

Inazuma said:
You have played Age of Empires and other similar games right? Those games are intensive not only in micro but also macro :eek:
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I hated age of empires more than i did WiC :(. Only RTS i've really ever liked off the top of my head was Dawn of War because you could leave units in strategic places and they wouldnt die instantly if you left em for a while.
 
kdd said:
I know, and the only point i wanted to make was that graphically the 360 is the more powerful console, no amount of cpu offloading can make up for the g70's out of dateness.
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The irony of that statement is that Xenos is equally out of date, just a little more powerful. The Cell has enough I/O performance that it could easily help out with the RSX, it's just not been put into practise (probably because of the hassle involved).

Streeteh said:
So would it be accurate to describe the SPUs as a jack of all trades but a master of none? You can assign them any task and they will be able to perform it to an acceptable standard?
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Yeah, pretty much. The Cell is pretty neat. :)
 
kdd said:
I know, and the only point i wanted to make was that graphically the 360 is the more powerful console, no amount of cpu offloading can make up for the g70's out of dateness.
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well why did you feel the need to bring up the power of one consoles gpu compared to the other in this thread? Why not just start your own thread about how great it is and see what kind of responce you get on there.

You wanted a fight and you got one :p
 
kdd said:
That's not what i meant but it doesn't matter.

Back to the gpu thing, it is very poor indeed that sony basically just used an out of date (by 12 months) desktop gpu, not modified in any way to suit a console. Clearly when publishers want to keep the 360 and ps3 versions of a game looking and running similarly this is going to be unfair to 360 users as at least ms and ati made the effort to make a console optimised graphics chip that is faster and easier to code for.
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kdd said:
It's not nonsense but fact, fanboys have issues with facts. The ps3 gpu is just an old desktop chip and the 360 chip was tailored for the 360 console.
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I don't get why this guy is saying 'suited to a console' - a GFX is a GFX, The one thing I don't get that he isn't taking stock of is if the 360 GFX /is/ better than the PS3 by a couple of years how does it hold up perfectly against it?

At the end of the day - if it plays the games why do you care? If you are that adamant about pointing out that your Xbox 360 has a better unified architecture and a better pipeline etc, haven't you missed the point of a game console?

You just pop it under the TV and play!

I do love chatting about hardware etc in things and weighing up what is better but at the end of the day you are just going to play games on it, and does it matter, really?

Rich
 
Anyhoo, back on topic. I had a go on this game on PC and it looked quite good but I didn't have enough time to really get into it. Is it any good?
 
Joebob said:
You say Cue flamewar and then you start it off yourself by making that statement.

I can see where it says the 360 is easier to code for, but where exactly does it say it's more powerful in that article?
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Exactly, it doesn't. We all know the 360 is the easier for developers and easier to code on. That's plain to see. The PS3 is complicated with all of it's cells... but in terms of power, I'd probably go as far to say that the PS3 is more powerful, but difference is minimal.

It does how ever do more than the 360 in terms of addon's, and has the better drive. 360 has the better games though, which is why I own a 360 and not a PS3.
 
Joebob said:
Anyhoo, back on topic. I had a go on this game on PC and it looked quite good but I didn't have enough time to really get into it. Is it any good?
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Multiplayer I really enjoyed, which is what this game is all about. The single player is pretty pants.

I'm not sure how well this will convert to consoles but I'll be interested to see how it turns out.
 
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