***World of Warcraft : Warlords of Draenor***

[madindehead]

The games changed from back in the day where pures were top, I don't have a problem with it really, as long as all specs are competitive it shouldn't matter if you're topping meters or middle of the pack.

Specs should be competitive yes. But hunters, rogues, mages and warlocks only have DPS specs, and should be a few % above everyone else damage wise. It's what the classes do. They can't fall back to healing or tanking if damage isn't competitive.

 

[Ayahuasca]

Well Warlocks just need a buff anyway to damage, it must be infuriating if you love a certain class and you're stuck with whatever blizz thinks is balanced.

 

[Squink]

Specs should be competitive yes. But hunters, rogues, mages and warlocks only have DPS specs, and should be a few % above everyone else damage wise. It's what the classes do. They can't fall back to healing or tanking if damage isn't competitive.

Yes. Give the utility to the hybrids and the damage to the dps. If you want to do the most dps, level a pure. If you want to swap between tanking, healing, ok dps and bring huge buffs to other players, level up a hybrid. I can't understand why it had to change.

 

[benny90125]

Yes. Give the utility to the hybrids and the damage to the dps. If you want to do the most dps, level a pure. If you want to swap between tanking, healing, ok dps and bring huge buffs to other players, level up a hybrid. I can't understand why it had to change.

Because people enjoy playing a dps spec of a hybrid but don't want to tank/heal, they shouldn't be punished for this.

 

[Woogie]

Because people enjoy playing a dps spec of a hybrid but don't want to tank/heal, they shouldn't be punished for this.

Why not? You chose the hybrid knowing it wasn't a pure but in the knowledge it was a jack of all trades.

On the flip side, All tanks and All healers are essentially hybrids so does that mean their dps specs should be lowered. The only classes that are essentially pure DPS are the ones previously mentioned but even then some still bring utility to a raid so they are not pure DPS either.

Nothing these days is a pure class anymore. By gimping the hybrids or healers that have OS as DPS you are saying that tanks have to have their DPS specs nerfed as well. How does that work for a Druid? They have tanking, ranged caster, healer and melee dps. Should all 4 of their specs be sub par just to make up for it? Should paladins tanking be worse because it has a healing and DPS spec as well? Which of the Priests healing specs should be stronger as there are 2 of them therefore making them a hybrid healer?

It is a slippery slope and one that should be carefully tread.

 

[Rusty0611]

Because people enjoy playing a dps spec of a hybrid but don't want to tank/heal, they shouldn't be punished for this.

I'm of the old school opinion on this. The pure DPS classes should in my opinion do more damage than classes that can do everything. If a bad player is playing a pure DPS class then a good player on a hybrid should do more damage. That's the principle I would follow but to actually balance around that is difficult.

As everyone brings raid buffs now there's no real advantage in bringing say a Rogue along to a balanced group over a Paladin. I don't think that's really right IMO.

 

[benny90125]

Why not? You chose the hybrid knowing it wasn't a pure but in the knowledge it was a jack of all trades.

On the flip side, All tanks and All healers are essentially hybrids so does that mean their dps specs should be lowered. The only classes that are essentially pure DPS are the ones previously mentioned but even then some still bring utility to a raid so they are not pure DPS either.

Nothing these days is a pure class anymore. By gimping the hybrids or healers that have OS as DPS you are saying that tanks have to have their DPS specs nerfed as well. How does that work for a Druid? They have tanking, ranged caster, healer and melee dps. Should all 4 of their specs be sub par just to make up for it? Should paladins tanking be worse because it has a healing and DPS spec as well? Which of the Priests healing specs should be stronger as there are 2 of them therefore making them a hybrid healer?

It is a slippery slope and one that should be carefully tread.

I think it's fine the way it is, either way someone will complain, whether its pure specs or hybrids.

 

[ShortWarning]

I'm of the old school opinion on this. The pure DPS classes should in my opinion do more damage than classes that can do everything. If a bad player is playing a pure DPS class then a good player on a hybrid should do more damage. That's the principle I would follow but to actually balance around that is difficult.

As everyone brings raid buffs now there's no real advantage in bringing say a Rogue along to a balanced group over a Paladin. I don't think that's really right IMO.

I agree with this.

 

[benny90125]

I'm of the old school opinion on this. The pure DPS classes should in my opinion do more damage than classes that can do everything. If a bad player is playing a pure DPS class then a good player on a hybrid should do more damage. That's the principle I would follow but to actually balance around that is difficult.

As everyone brings raid buffs now there's no real advantage in bringing say a Rogue along to a balanced group over a Paladin. I don't think that's really right IMO.

That's the problem though, the game has changed, it's been out 10 years now, they are just trying to make it appealing to as many people as possible.

There isn't a real advantage no, but unless you're pushing hard on server firsts etc there is no reason to exclude any spec as every spec is capable of pulling there own weight.

 

[Squink]

It is a slippery slope and one that should be carefully tread.

The game worked fine with hybrids doing reduced damage in vanilla and the first two expansions. I can't recall when the dps parity thing came in. The change was a philosophical one and has lead to every class being really similar. The Mage has generally been my favoured class but I never wanted or felt it needed to have bloodlust/heroism off Shamans. Why does every class need some sort of aura? I understand that they didn't want 10 mans hampered by lack of a shaman, priest or whatever, but the price is too high.

All classes to be the same beautiful *********, but nothing unique and no diversity.

EDIT and it's a philosophy that ends up with a ridiculous situation where an overperforming pure has to be reigned in because it's 10% higher than a chicken on the meters, while the chicken enjoys the benefits of healing and tanking if required. Or a Mage being slaughtered on the meters by every hybrid when the Mage has no alternative role to swap into. Daft I tells you.

 

[Woogie]

That is not true in reality, You only have to look at Windfury back in Vanilla to see the kind of OP dps a Hybrid used to put out.

You also cannot really compare the game as it stands now to Vanilla or even WotLK as it is a completely different game in a lot of aspects.

 

[benny90125]

If it's that much of a problem then swap to a hybrid class.

Bit of a bad example using mage's though as they are in the top 5 dps specs for 630/665/695 along with SV hunters and Sub rogues, which is 3 of the 4 pure's if I'm not mistaken, warlocks are the only pure class that doesn't have a spec in the top 5.

I know those placings aren't always how it works out but that's what simcraft says.

 

[Squink]

That is not true in reality, You only have to look at Windfury back in Vanilla to see the kind of OP dps a Hybrid used to put out.

You also cannot really compare the game as it stands now to Vanilla or even WotLK as it is a completely different game in a lot of aspects.

Shammies never used to put out OP dps. A nasty windfury proc in pvp would be quite unpleasant, but in terms of sustained pve dps, shammies weren't high on the meters. But if you put them in a melee group they would more than make up for their lower personal dps by sending everyone else's dps right up.

I know the game has moved on and often for the better. It doesn't necessarily mean that everything is for the better. If they'd chosen to build in a clear dps disparity with hybrids retaining their utility, I'd argue that the game would be better for it.

 

[Woogie]

I would have to disagree again, The player base just doesn't allow for it these days. Not everyone has the time or want to roll a second character just do another role. When you look at the classes now they are either DPS/Utility or Hybrid classes and this has been intentionally done to ensure that the player base stays interested and doesn't feel like its a chore to fill several roles.

Look at the decisions made and you can see that it is a common trend. BC both factions got their opposite factions hybrid class, WOTLK released a new hybrid class, Cata allowed more race/class combos, Pandaria released a new Hybrid Class. I honestly believe if there was a viable way for them to do it the current PURE dps classes would get some sort of hybrid.

But going back to the original arguement I do not see how you can realistically say that a Warrior dps should be lower than a Hunter dps by a fixed amount simply because they are a hybrid class as that simply does not make sense from any point of view other than for stroking the egos of those that are still considering themselves as a pure dps

 

[benny90125]

While I agree it could be a better game for it, having hybrid's deal significantly less damage but bring utility that buffs the rest of the raids damage would force every raid to need these specs, which blizzard doesn't want, they want you to bring the player not the class.

 

[benny90125]

I would have to disagree again, The player base just doesn't allow for it these days. Not everyone has the time or want to roll a second character just do another role. When you look at the classes now they are either DPS/Utility or Hybrid classes and this has been intentionally done to ensure that the player base stays interested and doesn't feel like its a chore to full several roles.

Look at the decisions made and you can see that it is a common trend. BC both factions got their opposite factions hybrid class, WOTLK released a new hybrid class, Cata allowed more race/class combos, Pandaria released a new Hybrid Class. I honestly believe if there was a viable way for them to do it the current PURE dps classes would get some sort of hybrid.

But going back to the original arguement I do not see how you can realistically say that a Warrior dps should be lower than a Hunter dps by a fixed amount simply because they are a hybrid class as that simply does not make sense from any point of view other than for stroking the egos of those that are still considering themselves as a pure dps

I agree with this completely.

 

[Squink]

But going back to the original arguement I do not see how you can realistically say that a Warrior dps should be lower than a Hunter dps by a fixed amount simply because they are a hybrid class as that simply does not make sense from any point of view other than for stroking the egos of those that are still considering themselves as a pure dps

The whole game is about stroking egos. That's why the player is constantly referred to as a "hero" by the npcs. Blizzard want every player to feel good. If I play as a pure (in fact over the years I've played all roles and most classes extensively) I WANT to feel like I'm wreaking death and destruction on my foes as it's all I can do. My ego is thusly stroked.

If I picked a warrior class should my ego be stroked by out dpsing the Rogue or should it be stroked by standing in front of a 30 foot tall boss and being in huge demand for this ability?

Would the Blood DK feel empowered if the Hunter's pet was an equally viable tank or if a Frost Mage could "tank" a boss purely by frostbolt kiting it? As you mentioned, you believe that Blizzard would give all classes dual roles if the could. I don't happen to believe this, but they certainly take away from the pure roles by making hybrids just as good, but the pures certainly can't get their egos stroked by pulling off a clutch heal when the boss is at 1% or tanking a pack of dragon elites.

 

[LambChop]

A lot has changed over the years and a lot more will change in the future, I remember my Hunter had to buy/make ammunition. I never get settled with a spec as I know its going to change and never get caught up with numbers. DPS numbers are only as good as the player regardless of class and that goes for HPS too.

 

[James J]

Well atleast you got something, 4 bosses down tonight (first raid back after xmas) and 0 loot even with 3 seals

- GP

Sadly had that on my priest for 3 weeks in a row with absolutely no loot, then shard of nothing heroic version from a follower quest lol. I absolutely hate RNG.

 

[James J]

As for the discussion about pure dps vs hybrids, I don't think feral druids vs rogues is a fair comparison to be honest. Druids have far less control over the damage they take compared to a rogue, even though they have a tanking spec. Survivability alone makes rogues a very viable and solid choice for a raid spot as they require far less healing than any other melee capable class due to evasion, feint (especially when glyphed, 30% damage reduction and 50% less aoe damage for 5 seconds, no cd just energy req!), combat readiness (if talented), cloak of shadows and vanish being a few examples.

Feral druid has what, iron bark for a damage limitation ability? No contest.