Are the USA morally superior to the UK?

[Anox]

The USA have become deluded in their own right. What applies to them but not to other people are evident.The government is now just controlled by greedy fat cats wanting to make money. It was all America was intended was for money. Now they are paying the price for this attitude. I'm not surprised the rest of the world hates their guts.

They may have produced people they think are great, but the rest of the planet doesn't really care what they say is right in their eyes because not many of them have benefited the world, those that do are celebrated, just as any other great person. Just because they are American doesn't vouch them to being better than anybody else. The US is just mediocre at best.

The 'Founding Fathers' were of British decent, but wanted 'freedom' to make cash and to middle finger the British Empire saying they can do better.

Although the computing industry was skyrocketed by the US, you are forgetting important inventions such as the telephone and television by us that enabled computing to become what it is today.

 

[Theophany]

You seemed to have selectively ignored the evolution & secularism points.

I'm not saying the UK is great by any standard, but morally we do have the higher ground (for a start we don't let poor people die of preventable illnesses because they don't have private healthcare - which to be honest is a pretty strong moral failing).

Again, governments/institutions not the population - most the UK don't really care about gay marriage or female bishops one way or the other (unlike the US).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the UK is amazing or anything - we are behind say Norway on almost every issue - but I'm not going to pretend we are equal morally to the USA (when in reality we are not).

I haven't ignored the points - as I said, the problems aren't exactly the same but there are still equally bad problems. Whilst we may be beyond the issues of debating evolution, we still have Spiritual Peers in the machinery of government (and let's not forget Blair said God told him to go to war). I think it's dangerous for us to become so blase about a still incomplete separation of church and state.

To say that the population doesn't care about gay issues is to tar all with the same brush. Spend some time with the gay community and see if the issues don't bother them - because trust me they really do matter and the kind of apathy you describe is considered to be as toxic as the hatred seen amongst certain parts of the US population.

Also, this idea that Americans simply let the poor die if they don't have healthcare is a total myth. It does not happen. Medicare and Medicaid have been around since 1965. In fact, since 1986 it has been a federal offence for any medical professional to deny healthcare to anybody in immediate need regardless of insurance, citizenship or legal status.

Whilst the coverage of Medicare and Medicaid may not be as widespread as many would like it and as a result leaving some without the means to treat certain illnesses, the NHS faces the same problems denying certain medications on cost grounds when they could greatly improve the quality of patients' lives and in some cases even prevent extreme severity (such as in cases of mental illnesses like dementia).

Of course, if you judge the US by British social standards they will come up short purely because Britain is a more progressive, left-leaning country in relative terms. But that's hardly a fair, objective comparison, is it? Much the same as if the US compared Britain to their more conservative, right-leaning standards we come up short.

 

[Rofflay]

Ha ha ha ha ha

No universal healthcare
overpriced education system
No welfare system at all.
A lot of crime.
Massive wealth inequality.

Sounds like a great place to live.

Agree with everything the man has said and it is the truth.Just go read some blogs on the price of aspirin in the USA.50p per aspirin after treatment for cancer and if you get sick a massive bill which you might never repay.Just go read some horror stories on the web about thier healthcare and look how hard obama has tried to fight to stop it.The sheer resistance of people tells me they are right wing looneys.And why has it taken them to the year 2012 to sort this **** out? The NHS is here since around world war two.


And dont even start about the tent cities and homeless problems since the recession.Its fine for them to bail out the banks but when it used for the poor all hell breaks loose.This is the country of guns and fascism.Just look at the GOP and the "let them die" on youtube.


America scares the **** out of me personally.I despise everything about America except freedom and the right to bear arms in self defence.I mean for god sake a mormon almost became president while wearing his special mormon underwear.


And then there is the fact that most of America is into this evangelical christianity and this rapture **** once the temple in Israel is rebuilt.I hate them for promoting Israel too which is a terrorist state.I mean how much of a retard are you if you believe in evangelical christianity while opressing blacks,poor people and palestinians.Not to mention your belief is reliant on a 2000 year old book written by a bunch of Jews to enslave you.

Also what about these nutters? This is the kind of retarded morons that make up a massive chunk of the american population.They deserve to be locked up for life in a maximum security mental hospital.The crazy bitch calls herself a god warrior while being obese.So dumb that she forgets about gluttony being one of the seven deadly sins.Lololo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjl54v1irbs



BOMB THEM ALL

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

Have you looked at the scientific record of the UK? Its second to none. Only the population of the USA, and the number of highly qualified war criminals during WWII make it stand out so.

I corrected that for you.

edit: just to add the OP title was based on a question of morality. Who's morals? Ours, our governments (lol yes I know difficult to type that without laughing)?

 

[elmarko]

I haven't ignored the points - as I said, the problems aren't exactly the same but there are still equally bad problems. Whilst we may be beyond the issues of debating evolution, we still have Spiritual Peers in the machinery of government (and let's not forget Blair said God told him to go to war). I think it's dangerous for us to become so blase about a still incomplete separation of church and state.

Who said anything about becoming blasé?, I'm simply pointing out the fact that religion plays a lesser role in our society compared to the USA.

I do agree we have problems with unelected religious bodies, but at least our candidates don't have to be openly & pro-religious to get votes.

To say that the population doesn't care about gay issues is to tar all with the same brush. Spend some time with the gay community and see if the issues don't bother them - because trust me they really do matter and the kind of apathy you describe is considered to be as toxic as the hatred seen amongst certain parts of the US population.

Seriously - get a grip.

It's pretty obvious to anybody with any level of reading comprehension that I meant that most people don't mind/care if gay people get married - you seem to be mistaking "not caring if gay people get married" to "not caring if gay people CAN get married or not".

Also, this idea that Americans simply let the poor die if they don't have healthcare is a total myth. It does not happen. Medicare and Medicaid have been around since 1965. In fact, since 1986 it has been a federal offence for any medical professional to deny healthcare to anybody in immediate need regardless of insurance, citizenship or legal status.

Which is why they have one of the highest death rates for preventable illnesses (in the developed world)?.

Whilst the coverage of Medicare and Medicaid may not be as widespread as many would like it and as a result leaving some without the means to treat certain illnesses, the NHS faces the same problems denying certain medications on cost grounds when they could greatly improve the quality of patients' lives and in some cases even prevent extreme severity (such as in cases of mental illnesses like dementia).

The kind of care you get in the USA for free is nothing like the NHS.

Of course, if you judge the US by British social standards they will come up short purely because Britain is a more progressive, left-leaning country in relative terms. But that's hardly a fair, objective comparison, is it? Much the same as if the US compared Britain to their more conservative, right-leaning standards we come up short.

These are not left leaning standards, these are basic living standards.

You seem so set on perpetuating a myth that the USA & UK are equal but different you are blind to these objective facts - you are trying hard to make it fit the statement but ultimately failing.

Give me some examples in which the USA ahead of us by any quality of life indexes or measurable criteria.

America fails on murder rates, life expectancy, quality of life index, social mobility, poverty, wealth inequality, financially motivated crime, rape, assault, average healthcare quality per citizen, literacy rates, freedom of media ratings & many more - this isn't some "left leaning" criteria, unless right wing people don't care about the above (which I'm fairly sure they do).

 

[Theophany]

These are not left leaning standards, these are basic living standards.

You seem so set on perpetuating a myth that the USA & UK are equal but different you are blind to these objective facts - you are trying hard to make it fit the statement but ultimately failing..

See, this is why this is pointless. You're claiming a totally subjective 'fact' is incontrovertible. Give me a scientific measure of how one is superior to the other morally, then we'll talk about how wrong I am.

And for the that reason, I'm out.

 

[Horse Pop]

There are plenty of metrics you can apply.

Whether we'd agree on what they are measuring is another question.

 

[elmarko]

See, this is why this is pointless. You're claiming a totally subjective 'fact' is incontrovertible. Give me a scientific measure of how one is superior to the other morally, then we'll talk about how wrong I am.

And for the that reason, I'm out.

I listed a number of objective facts below the part you quoted - we can debate the meaning of "moral" if you would prefer, but for ease of discussion I tend to go with the standard meaning of the term.

Apologies if it undermined your argument & caused you to run off from the debate.

If you want to dispute that having a higher murder rate, lower literacy rates, higher wealth inequality (all objective facts) is morally superior then we would have to have a basic discussion as to what you mean by "moral", as it seems you are using a private definition nobody else has access to.

I didn't say my definition of moral was a fact, just the lists of different measurements the US falls behind us on were.

There are plenty of metrics you can apply.

Whether we'd agree on what they are measuring is another question.

This basically.

I'm providing measurable criteria (as above a few posts) & by moral I mean "the concern for the well-being of sentient beings" - (definition stolen from Sam Harris).

 

[Jambo]

Since it seems we have expanded from 'morally' I would say America is streets ahead in (online) tech due to the silicone valley and investing in startups culture.

 

[Theophany]

I listed a number of objective facts below the part you quoted - we can debate the meaning of "moral" if you would prefer, but for ease of discussion I tend to go with the standard meaning of the term.

Apologies if it undermined your argument & caused you to run off from the debate.

If you want to dispute that having a higher murder rate, lower literacy rates, higher wealth inequality (all objective facts) is morally superior then we would have to have a basic discussion as to what you mean by "moral", as it seems you are using a private definition nobody else has access to.

I didn't say my definition of moral was a fact, just the lists of different measurements the US falls behind us on were.

This is really the crux of it then. Morality isn't universal, it's personal - I don't care who Sam Harris is or what he says about it. My morals are different to yours and clearly Mr. Harris'. Do you honestly believe everybody has the same sense of right and wrong? Quoting a murder rate or a literacy rate doesn't prove anything beyond itself. It may suggest something else. It may lead people to believe something else (rightly or wrongly). But it doesn't prove your point of view, nor mine.

I've not once claimed that your opinion on the matter is wrong, I have merely disagreed with it. In fact, I stated disagreement with another poster and you decided that you felt the need to try and undermine my opinion somehow.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you don't raise valid points - you have done. But whereas I was merely providing an alternative view by questioning others, you're simply trying to make a complex issue binary.

 

[elmarko]

This is really the crux of it then. Morality isn't universal, it's personal - I don't care who Sam Harris is or what he says about it. My morals are different to yours and clearly Mr. Harris'. Do you honestly believe everybody has the same sense of right and wrong? Quoting a murder rate or a literacy rate doesn't prove anything beyond itself. It may suggest something else. It may lead people to believe something else (rightly or wrongly). But it doesn't prove your point of view, nor mine.

A fair point, but to discuss if America is more or less moral than the UK (which this stupid thread was about) - it does help to share a common definition - but I agree it's subjective.

I've not once claimed that your opinion on the matter is wrong, I have merely disagreed with it. In fact, I stated disagreement with another poster and you decided that you felt the need to try and undermine my opinion somehow.

Not really, just I'd press you for some criteria in which you measure the UK against the US which makes us net off as even, or puts the USA ahead of us (which ends up fitting your definition).

Without knowing by which definition you are judging them as equal to us, I can only speculate.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you don't raise valid points - you have done. But whereas I was merely providing an alternative view by questioning others, you're simply trying to make a complex issue binary.

Fair enough.

I simply wanted to point out that the UK is doing a number of things which result in a reduction in net human suffering which the USA isn't (things listed) - which meets my definition of "moral".

 

[Theophany]

this stupid thread

I think we've found some excellent common ground.

 

[Lunatic Dreyfus]

Good grief. Why should we look up to the Yanks? I've always considered the US to be one of the most messed up nations on Earth.

I don't hold out much hope for their future either.

 

[elmarko]

I think we've found some excellent common ground.

No disagreement here!.

 

[NeilJames1978]

I think you have used the term "morally" superior when you meant technilogically/socially superior. Britain has had it's glitches in history sure but we can trace our heratige back thousands of years (stone henge is 5000 years old alone) in americas short time on this planet they have been resposible for the holocaust of 11-14 million native americans, launched 2 weapons of mass destruction in anger againsed another country (the only nation ever to do so) and lets not forget thier drone project that is contolled by the CIA which does not have to explain or admit to it's actions to any one nor can they be called to an American court to explain them, they can under the "911 act" fire at any target in any counrty at any time in the world if they see it to be in the best interests of Americas national security. That could mean the UK by the way! So no, no I don't think the Americans are morally superior to the UK.

 

[starfighter]

I think the main thing the USA has going for it is size, the UK does well for such a small country, this is why I am very pro EU. We need to become bigger to compete with these superpowers.

 

[Mickie]

Morally, aren't we the same ? currently we get into the same wars as them..

Their history is wrong, killing all those natives but our's is also bad, us killing all those Indians and taking over half the world.

 

[NeilJames1978]

Maybe so, as I said we have had our glitches in history, but ours are over a 5000-10,000 year history thiers is no more that 300, they have done a lot wrong in a very short space in time and don't seem to learn from it, that was my point! Aparrantly we are to expect a war with the American and either Pakistan or Iran within 4 years.

 

[aln]

I did not say they have an extreme left wing at all, far from it. Their mainstream left of centre (the Democrats) can't even dare ask for (if they event want) welfare policies that the tories wouldn't even dream of trying to get rid of!

Are you sure you're not a troll?

What do you mean they produce the best in everything? Their cars are largely awful, most of their electronics are rubbish, they make their houses out of sticks.

Reasons in my view (and not at all researched) why the US was/is (may be) so strong:

natural resources
greed and a sense of entitlement and to be fair empowerment (for white people at least)
space
timing their wars largely carefully

Ask a native american about human rights

The US became strong by default because Europe ruined itself twice. I imagine things would probably be different if WW1 & WW2 never happened. They do have a major population advantage on most countries in the world, so maybe it wouldn't be different.

Back to the actual question, no I do not think the US is more moral than the UK. In the past there was a lot of love for freedom, liberty, and usually due process, which I think is fantastic, but their entire system has been twisted based on fear and greed and it holds them back so an elite can prosper. I wouldn't call it very moral and probably wouldn't want to live there unless I was wealthy.

Morally, aren't we the same ? currently we get into the same wars as them..

We have welfare programs and such. We aren't the same but I'd say we're nearly just as bad when you consider the wars and our nanny state. Unfortunately in both countries, large swaths of the population support this.

 

[Mickie]

i think our welfare is great but it also breads free loaders.. i can see why they'd rather people work and pay an insurance.. i just see their system pushes people into work.

our system doesn't, people in this country being on the dole for over 20 years will agree i'm sure..

obviously as well as ours, their system is no where near perfect and it makes me sad when you see whole familys homeless in america