Project managers
- Thread starter nero120
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Soldato
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Says it all.
Id rather listen to ballmer than listen to jobs, that guy is seriously in his own little world where macs have global domination, and the key to being innovative is making things microscopically thinner and hailing it as some massive deal.
Nero, i'm not a PM, nor are any of my friends etc.
All you've done is shown yourself to have a very poor understanding of the role of a PM and what they do.
I could probably spend 30 minutes quoting all of your posts basically and ripping them to shreds but I just can't be bothered. I'm glad I don't work with you basically
That's good, I'm also glad I don't work for a snivelling know-it-all like yourself. How many times have I stated I'm ranting? Looks like this little detail escaped your wonderful powers of observation. The fact is, all you know is what I've told you, so basically you know **** all.
Have a nice day!
Caporegime
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nero120 you don't seem like much of a team player. Maybe you'd be more suited to a role where you don't have to interact with anyone, in case they ask you a tricky question?
Thankfully one other person in this thread has shown some intelligence. Cheers Pneumonic.
Wow you certainly know me! Who gave you my file?
Lol at the armchair psychologists on here! God what was I thinking posting in GD...
Caporegime
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Well I can only go by the information to hand and as you pointed out, that is limited. Presumably you expected everyone to agree that all PMs were arses and that you were clearly in the right?
The fact is, all you know is what I've told you, so basically you know **** all.
Have a nice day!
He probably feels a bit like the PM then.
Soldato
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Just tell him "Tuesday". If it come around to next Tuesday and you're not finished just say "oh no, I meant Tuesday, next week".
Why not just overestimate time required. Then if it takes longer than you thought you'll be on time and if not you'll be faster
Overestimation can be just as damaging as underestimation (by overestimation I am not talking a day or so, but say a week).. for instance I have a contractor working on a parallel but interlinked piece of development, I have hired him based on your estimation now you overestimate and cost me an extra week of contractor costs
Soldato
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TBH I'm yet to work with a good PM, I hope this is due to the company I work for rather than PMs in general.
All the PMs I've worked with in the past have had the following problems
They don't understand what it is they are trying to achieve.
They don't know what needs to be done to achieve what it is they need to achieve
They don't know who they need or what skills are required to get get the job done
They don't listen to the people that do know what needs to be done and what skills are required.
They don't outline Roles and Responsibilities
They don't agree SLAs
They don't take issues, risks or assumptions on board
They ask if you can reduce the size of the estimate because it does not fit their time line or budget (or both).
They are very capable of identifying whats not been done, but not necessarily able to organise getting the issues resolved, it often comes down to the individual that points out the issue, regardless if its in their scope of work or not (for example there is a routing issue in the network preventing access to a server, its the person who pointed it outs issue, rather than the PM getting a person from the networking team to resolve it).
They don't understand that We Don't Have to work at Weekends or in the Evenings, its optional on the employees behalf and if we are busy or just plain don't want to then its not going to happen (although personally I'll help out where I can).
So frankly I do not have that high an opinion on PMs and I have worked with dozens of them. In fact some are so bad that they don't even bother with MS Project Plans or the like.
Honestly I think there is huge savings to be made in my company by sacking the lot of the "Promoted from within" PMs and getting some properly trained, experienced PMs that have proven track records in other companies.
In terms of estimation I use the following rule.
If I don't know the full extent of the work, estimate how long it will take to figure out the extent of the work and perform it, then double it.
All the PMs I've worked with in the past have had the following problems
They don't understand what it is they are trying to achieve.
They don't know what needs to be done to achieve what it is they need to achieve
They don't know who they need or what skills are required to get get the job done
They don't listen to the people that do know what needs to be done and what skills are required.
They don't outline Roles and Responsibilities
They don't agree SLAs
They don't take issues, risks or assumptions on board
They ask if you can reduce the size of the estimate because it does not fit their time line or budget (or both).
They are very capable of identifying whats not been done, but not necessarily able to organise getting the issues resolved, it often comes down to the individual that points out the issue, regardless if its in their scope of work or not (for example there is a routing issue in the network preventing access to a server, its the person who pointed it outs issue, rather than the PM getting a person from the networking team to resolve it).
They don't understand that We Don't Have to work at Weekends or in the Evenings, its optional on the employees behalf and if we are busy or just plain don't want to then its not going to happen (although personally I'll help out where I can).
So frankly I do not have that high an opinion on PMs and I have worked with dozens of them. In fact some are so bad that they don't even bother with MS Project Plans or the like.
Honestly I think there is huge savings to be made in my company by sacking the lot of the "Promoted from within" PMs and getting some properly trained, experienced PMs that have proven track records in other companies.
In terms of estimation I use the following rule.
If I don't know the full extent of the work, estimate how long it will take to figure out the extent of the work and perform it, then double it.
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Sounds like a normal manager based on where I have worked lol
Soldato
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Oh and when problems arise there seems to be more PMs involved in resolving the issue/apportioning blame than there are techies fixing the issue.
I was part of a call a month or 2 back to sort out an issue there were 3 people on the line that knew enough about the subject to have a discussion about resolving it, however we did not get a word in edge ways as there were 6 PMs arguing the toss over it.
I was part of a call a month or 2 back to sort out an issue there were 3 people on the line that knew enough about the subject to have a discussion about resolving it, however we did not get a word in edge ways as there were 6 PMs arguing the toss over it.
The first thing I was taught as a trainee developer is when a PM asks you for an estimate of how long a piece of work will take you should work out your estimate, double it, then add a bit.
Never fail to get a piece of work in on time then
Never fail to get a piece of work in on time then
My old project manager moved overseas just as my year long project was coming to an end. So now a conglomerate of other managers have descended on my project to "fix it". I finished all the work in January and wrote the plan for the report. This in itself was knocking on 10,000 words as I put a fair amount of effort into it. It covered everything the client asked for in a sensible order.
Unfortunately now all the seagull managers have descended on me the report still has yet to be written. On the plus side they do get to have pointless meetings on a weekly basis to make themselves seem important. None of them have read my plan but after 6months of meetings have decided one of them will write the report. And to my great surprise his structure is incredibly similar (exactly the same) to mine.
Now I can see myself getting asked stupid questions for the next 2months while this manager tries to write a report for a project he hasn't worked on. On the plus side he did say "Michael your not writing the report, so its not your problem"
that was a bad choice of words and I can no doubt make his life more difficult.
Unfortunately now all the seagull managers have descended on me the report still has yet to be written. On the plus side they do get to have pointless meetings on a weekly basis to make themselves seem important. None of them have read my plan but after 6months of meetings have decided one of them will write the report. And to my great surprise his structure is incredibly similar (exactly the same) to mine.
Now I can see myself getting asked stupid questions for the next 2months while this manager tries to write a report for a project he hasn't worked on. On the plus side he did say "Michael your not writing the report, so its not your problem"
that was a bad choice of words and I can no doubt make his life more difficult.
Soldato
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Good PMs, Bad PMs. Good DEVs, Bad DEVS. Good [insert whatever role here], Bad [insert whatever role here].
It's just how it is, I've worked on both sides of the fence delievering to PMs and managing projects myself and from experience in this situation the best way to get something achieved is to not work with the attitude them and us as with that attitude it's doomed from the start.
Have to agree with some of the other posters in this thread that the OP is coming across as having serious amounts of bitterness.
It's just how it is, I've worked on both sides of the fence delievering to PMs and managing projects myself and from experience in this situation the best way to get something achieved is to not work with the attitude them and us as with that attitude it's doomed from the start.
Have to agree with some of the other posters in this thread that the OP is coming across as having serious amounts of bitterness.
My old project manager moved overseas just as my year long project was coming to an end. So now a conglomerate of other managers have descended on my project to "fix it". I finished all the work in January and wrote the plan for the report. This in itself was knocking on 10,000 words as I put a fair amount of effort into it. It covered everything the client asked for in a sensible order.
Unfortunately now all the seagull managers have descended on me the report still has yet to be written. On the plus side they do get to have pointless meetings on a weekly basis to make themselves seem important. None of them have read my plan but after 6months of meetings have decided one of them will write the report. And to my great surprise his structure is incredibly similar (exactly the same) to mine.
Now I can see myself getting asked stupid questions for the next 2months while this manager tries to write a report for a project he hasn't worked on. On the plus side he did say "Michael your not writing the report, so its not your problem"
Lol Seagull Managers.
Managers who appear, create lots of noise and mess then leave as fast they they appear.