GDC Sony press conference.

[Demon]

Longest sentence ever.


But the reason for that is because it's incredibly difficult to not only judge your movements, but to then assess the movement, and have it's power, accuracy, and position all assigned to display on screen for the many different moves you can make in this way. What the Wii, and I assume Move, has/will done/do is either have a set of moves that you must recreate, or to have one punching movement like Wii Boxing with the same effect with every punch, regardless or position, speed, or type.

The vid Smalls put up above somewhere shows a Move tech demo, and they have this Robot overlay that is tracking the guys arms 1:1 using his head as a reference point to the controllers, seems very much like you'd want for boxing?

Wii Sports boxing annoys me, as I used to do Kick-boxing, so initially went at it full-on, and tried pummelling the AI, but sadly it turned out to be a timed gesture thing.. even my 4 year old daughter at the time could do surprising well just in waggle mode!..

But, I do agree when people say, making it too 'physical' and accurate would perhaps not be for everyone!

And I'll try and shorten my sentences, English was never my strong point!.

 

[McManicMan]

i like the way Sony have gone with this, the copied the wii and made it more advanced.
Not sure about Natel as to me that just looks the same as the old eyetoy games where you just move your body and wave your hands about and was never "that" accurate.

 

[Streeteh]

If i'm honest, and by this i mean saying what is really on my mind and not choosing my words carefully to avoid upsetting people etc. I believe this, if implemented correctly, will be the best motion controller for interacting with 'skilful' games. By this i mean games that require twitch reactions and precision such as shooters.

My reasoning for this? It's an advancement of the concept that's already being used (the Wii) so they've had the opportunity to learn from the mistakes made in the Wii and also improve on the feature set. The main downfall of the Wii was the lack of responsiveness, hopefully this particular implementation of simple motion tracking will overcome this issue and allow for more control over games. The technology is tried and tested and, again if implemented correctly, will work. Also lets not forget Sony devs have been tinkering with motion capture gaming for a lot longer than their competition so i'd like to think they've done a good job of this (but then, you can never tell with Sony until you get your hands on the finished product).

Natal is ambitious and in my opinion possibly ahead of its time. The technology required for quick and accurate tracking of an 'undefined' object (by this i mean something that isn't completely standard, such as the glowing ball at the end of the PS3 motion controller, something for the software to 'recognise' quickly and track effectively) is just too expensive for it to be possible for Microsoft to be selling it at such a low price. Don't get me wrong i think Natal will be good, but i think it won't be responsive enough for many of the games that Microsoft seem to be penning this for (the demos of Half Life 2 and Burnout spring to mind). I'd prefer to use it over the Wii for party games and such, i also think the software developed for it will be superior to offerings on the Wii, but i can't see it working too well for certain genres.

Obviously this is entirely speculation based on the very brief period i've spent studying computer vision (one module )

 

[sc(+)pe]

I personally don't think Microsoft or Sony will capture any new market. I certainly can't see my partners mum and dad replacing their Wii with either of the new offerings. Likewise I can't see my best m8 and his misses doing likewise.

I really think Sony and MS both missed the boat on this style of controller and games. I reckon both will need the current install base to buy these peripherals as I don't see them capturing the new market that Nintendo tapped into with the Wii.

 

[Mr Latte]

Stop using phrases with superlatives in them then? simple really..

MS have comparably loads of 1st party titles this year, Natal, etc, but we don't go around bleating on about how they 'seem to be unstoppable' because as we know they are pretty much still vying it out between each other..

Just show some balance and I won't feel it necessary to pipe up to try and bring the conversation down to the the real world.. you sound like a a 1 man Sony Marketing Hype Machine at times, which is fine, but it shows a large degree of bias..

I've been here long enough and had various conversations with you, so I know exactly what your stance is with Sony and MS, I don't know why you pretend otherwise?

Yes MS had lots of 1st party titles last year as well.
The point being made was the PS3 platform is the only platform currently increasing in sales. Thats not me being biased just reporting what aparently is happening. Thats according to Sony at GDC.

I dont need to show balance as all Ive stated is what platform I expect to sell best this year and why that may happen. Its an opinon backed by sales showing a system thats gaining market share advantage and looking at "Move" it may help it maintain that position as will the increase in popularity of HDTVs and Blu Ray sales. Wii will no longer have a special feature if all parties offer those types of games soon.

Now if anything your the one banging on about Natal when weve yet to really see it in action and compare. Also regards your FM3 sales hasnt it only sold about 2 Million which isnt great for their "AAA" racing title. Gees man Prologue sold double that, which is a glorified demo. Again I say this as not system wars but the power of some of Sonys long established franchises and plenty of them which somehow have the ability to also sell systems.

Point of my excitment well, combine something like a MAJOR franchise in say Killzone with "Move" and possibly add in "3DTV" if Sony can do that and offer those type of games in the near future and when hardware prices continue to keep dropping then please tell me how Sony are not in a commanding position offering a way to experience games no other platform will offer.

In a nutshell Id love to see 3D free control movement mixed with standard type control that "Move" offers but also would love that to be combined with the excellent things 3DTV could do for games in sheer entertainment.

 

[Demon]

The point being made was the PS3 platform is the only platform currently increasing in sales. Thats not me being biased just reporting what aparently is happening. Thats according to Sony at GDC.

quote]

nvm, clealry since Sony said it at GDC, we better bow down to the hype train...

 

[CliffyBiro]

eh? the 360, like the ps3 has great 1st party titles this coming year, who cares about last year?

the 360 has Natal coming like the PS3 has Move coming..

Sales wise, the ps3 has great momentum, but the 360 is also having a bumper ti,e since last November, http://vgchartz.com/hwlaunch.php, if you look at the trends, both see, to be selling largely at their respective rates for the last 2 years.

so as far as this year goes, it pretty much looks like last year and the year before..

Maybe 2011 truly will be the year it starts sky rocketing, but I dont see the PS3 having anything other then 3D over the 360 this year, and thats very much in its infancy and not likely to be a reality until near the end of the year.

I see it as being as close as it has been every other year, Im not falling for the Move or Natal hype, lets wait and see..

Well, as far as exclusives go, there would appear to be more 'massive' releases expected for PS3 than 360 this year.

Although that depends on if GT5 actually appears this time.

Crackdown 2 and Alan Wake seem to be the 2 big exclusives. One of which is a new IP.

nvm, clealry since Sony said it at GDC, we better bow down to the hype train...

LOL from the same person who said this

Look, end of the day, the Press/Journo's etc have had hands on with Natal even in it's development state and none share your lack of 'thought into it'..

So although you are entitled to that opinion, and good on you for sticking to it, but I see no credible source of information that remotely backs it up..

Lets not argue over it, I see as much in Natal as I do in Move, just in a different way, I'm happy for both to exsit, the only opinion I offer is that I think Natal is different enough to possibly attract a new userbase to the console..

 

[Demon]

Well, as far as exclusives go, there would appear to be more 'massive' releases expected for PS3 than 360 this year.

Although that depends on if GT5 actually appears this time.

Crackdown 2 and Alan Wake seem to be the 2 big exclusives. One of which is a new IP.










LOL from the same person who said this

I edited, as i dont want to be on a lone crusade, clearly he is a 1 man hype machine hanging off every sony word, getting all giggly over the thought of KZ2 with Move controls ?

And there is a big difference between the spin Sony / MS put on stuff to the medias reactions to it..

Enough arguing,

Mr Latte and others tell us its the year of the PS3 (how many times have we heard this), I am as always thinking its pretty much business as usual, not worth getting into any more long debate over it, opinions have been stated, there is bugger all but observations and guesswork to go on at this stage.

 

[CliffyBiro]

I edited, as i dont want to be on a lone crusade, clearly he is a 1 man hype machine hanging off every sony word, getting all giggly over the thought of KZ2 with Move controls ?

And there is a big difference between the spin Sony / MS put on stuff to the medias reactions to it..

Enough arguing,

Mr Latte and others tell us its the year of the PS3 (how many times have we heard this), I am as always thinking its pretty much business as usual, not worth getting into any more long debate over it, opinions have been stated, there is bugger all but observations and guesswork to go on at this stage.

That's the thing though, you made statements based on assumptions and guesswork a few times, and then jumped on anyone who did the same, and backed down from your previous statement.

 

[Demon]

That's the thing though, you made statements based on assumptions and guesswork a few times, and then jumped on anyone who did the same, and backed down from your previous statement.

We all have to make judgements and guess sometimes, but you need to provide credible evidence to back up those statements?

Occasionally when challenged, I look for such evidence, if I cant find anything credible, I back down, Im only human. My problem is, and admit that, I dont give any credence to opinion that is quite baseless.

To be clear, all I am saying is because I see equal hype and spin in the media for the PS3 and 360s immediate future, I see no overwhelming reason to jump in with both feet and start hyping up one platform over the other. Luckily history and the false prophesising of the 'year of the PS3' should be an indicator to why perhaps, you can see why Im not covinced yet.

Oddly I give the same outlook to both consoles, both seem to be doing well, and are selling shedloads with awesome games and stuff coming.


Time for a beer!

 

[Mr Latte]

That's the thing though, you made statements based on assumptions and guesswork a few times, and then jumped on anyone who did the same, and backed down from your previous statement.

Demon is on some personal crusade with me at the moment judging by his talk here of Natal and the 3DTV thread regards what "PS3 Eye" can and cannotdo. Yet hes been incorrect on a few things their which seems more of "his beliefs/understanding" of things than actual facts.

I however stated what Sony said at GDC something along the lines that they were the only ones to have increased sales in 2009. If Sony is lying about that then dont blame me, I am trying to be factual not spouting out anything and do believe with some of you here regards software line up, hardware, blu ray etc all those will indeed as to a certain extent now "Move" and 3DTV ability may indeed be reasons for consumer to purchase a PS3.

What will be interesting is when Natal and Move are both on the shelves in what software they will offer and for ones like myslef that own both a X360 and PS3 which one will they buy into?

The "Games" will likely be what sell these devices over if one is technically better than the other. Again thats me just trying to be reasonable so lets wait and see.

 

[Demon]

Demon is on some personal crusade with me at the moment judging by his talk here of Natal and the 3DTV thread regards what "PS3 Eye" can and cannotdo. Yet hes been incorrect on a few things their which seems more of "his beliefs/understanding" of things than actual facts.

I however stated what Sony said at GDC something along the lines that they were the only ones to have increased sales in 2009. If Sony is lying about that then dont blame me, I am trying to be factual not spouting out anything and do believe with some of you here regards software line up, hardware, blu ray etc all those will indeed as to a certain extent now "Move" and 3DTV ability may indeed be reasons for consumer to purchase a PS3.

What will be interesting is when Natal and Move are both on the shelves in what software they will offer and for ones like myslef that own both a X360 and PS3 which one will they buy into?

The "Games" will likely be what sell these devices over if one is technically better than the other. Again thats me just trying to be reasonable so lets wait and see.

I apologise for my response in this thread, but not the other, that's facts and science, not opinion and subjectiveness.

I will just say that Sony (MS and ninty) will always represent what ever positive statistics they can, and we are in 2010 now, that is all..

Look at the lfirst 3 months of this year,

http://vgchartz.com/hwcomps.php?con...All&cons3=X360&reg3=All&start=40181&end=40244

Now considering that the PS3 since launch has always sold a little more on average each month then the 360, and we all know it'll overtake it at some point, you can see that so far this year, it's all pretty much the same old business, the 360 and PS3 selling at their respective levels pretty much consistently.. All this 'year on year' percentage stuff Sony (and MS) spout is pretty meaningless, just look at the LTD sales charts, you can almost draw straight lines for each console, they've all been remarkably stable (bar the odd hump such as the PS3 slim, which seems to be over now)

So of course when I see no evidence of such sustained massive growth, I just think 'business as usual'.. How many times do MS come out with similar BS when they've had a bumper month? I just ignore it, as I don't care what they say, it's what they sell over a sustained period that matters..

It isn't going to be until much later on in the year when Move and Natal and 3D arrive, then in 2011 we'll no doubt be able to confidently say it's all a success and see how they are doing..

 

[msmalls74]

Some more demos of Move/PSeye in action

Face detection

Voice control/head tracking

 

[Demon]

^^ That facial recognition tech in the first vid is awfully similar to Logitech's 3D avatars for it's webcams, but at least it is more fluid.

And the Head tracking, seems a bit odd at times, seems like it's using some head gestures as well as tracking left/right, which could be quite cool for selecting weapons or the like.

If you've ever seen TrackIR stuff, you'd think they demo that type of thing for head tracking, it would look far more impressive.

I see GT5 using head tracking as it's been widely rumoured, and that will be cool indeed..

Still, it's obviously coming along, be interesting to see what they end up doing with it.

I guess E3 is the when the real big blow out will occur?

 

[Mr Latte]

Now considering that the PS3 since launch has always sold a little more on average each month then the 360, and we all know it'll overtake it at some point

So of course when I see no evidence of such sustained massive growth, I just think 'business as usual'.. How many times do MS come out with similar BS when they've had a bumper month? I just ignore it, as I don't care what they say, it's what they sell over a sustained period that matters..

You are contradicting yourself here, firstly by saying over a sustaind period of time since PS3 launch that PS3 actually has been selling more than X360.
Then for some reason you comment "you see no evidence of sustained growth"

Man its time you make your mind up.

Furthermore regards your still insistance about PS3 Eye from the "3DTV thread" and that it could only offer 2D tracking which people here can either agree with you and if Im wrong then I will gladly admit I am mistaken.

I expressed this video clearly showed headtracking in 3D as when the user clearly moves towards the screen the animated head tracks this and adjusts the size. If this is not tracking in a depth axis rather than just left or right based on 2D as you comment then what is it? This could easily be used for creating the "looking through a window or frame" method used to change the perspective of something onscreen that was showcased on the wii.


Head Distance Feature Example

Demon in the other thread you then later changed your mind from your original statement about the 2D to then stating PS3 Eye isnt as precise or as accurate to the famous "wii tracking demo"
Now in fairness ive pointed out that it is not regarded that the wii has a very accurate sense of motion detection in its controller and sensorbar. The guy used infared lights as that is what the sensor bar uses to work with the wii controller, Im not certain infared lights in some way make it much more accurate perhaps they do. You continue to discredit the abilities of the PS3 Eye as inferior regardless but that has not been concluded yet as you or I do not know the abilities.
The videos seem to show the motion tracking is accurate enough from what I see anyways without infared lights and just face recogniton from the PS3 Eye.

I also stated it was likely down to the capabilities of the hardware and the software which determind what each could provide.
You on the other hand are so sure wii offers superior tracking which ive questioned how you know this and can make such a statement?
I did express PS3 Eye is capable of 120 Hz refresh and videos I see now here also linked show what developers can not only provide headtracking in free movement of six axis for the PS3 Eye but also all the benifits of its cybershot autofocus and face detection abilities that the developers have now with the librarys mentioned in the videos.

Now what I see in that video in what the "PS3 Eye" can offer with the combination of the improved technology "Move" provides in accuracy over the "wii" and importantly the ability to use it with the additional analogue controller means to me anyways that "Move" will be the superior product in technical terms at least. As I also pointed out if Sony have this coming in a popular franchise title perhaps, "Killzone", "Resistance", "Metal Gear" or indeed "Socom" then its going to greatly ensure sales to the action gamer also and not just kids or family games copying what the wii offers.
Natal does not seem to have the ability to do this, are we for instance going to see "Gears 3" using Natal, and no actual tactile controls, I doubt it.




[SIZE="-1"]You can still rabbit on about Natal and how superior technically the wii is in its tracking all you want.
Actually youve yet to prove or provide any concrete evidence to support your opinion.
I ask how you then have the cheek to say your findings opinon are as you commented above "facts and science, not opinion and subjectiveness"[/SIZE]

 

[Mr Latte]

Some good examples of headtracking using a basic PC Webcam with API face detection.
This helps prove my point that a lot of this headtracking is down to the software.

PS3 Eye should have the ability to offer the same type of experience
Demon however believes this is not going to be possible or accurate enough without "wearing glasses with infared lights" and I very much DO NOT think we will have to strap a "Move" controller with its coloured lightsource onto our heads but cheers Demon for your input.



Face API 2008
(Sony have now shown with the cow demo it can now utilise "head distance")


We could always assume that Sony have very little experience in "Face or Headtracking" software or hardware but thats not factual is it.
Yeah lets ignore their "Cybershot" technology used in digital and video cameras and even how from the very beginning the PS3 slideshow was able to detect faces

Clever stuff id say.

This concludes "My version of Facts & Science"
Over to you Demon.

 

[K1LLSW1TCH]

Looks like a sex toy.

 

[Demon]

Over to you Demon.

See the other thread, and fill your boots

Which to sum up would be something like "Apples are different to oranges, and no matter how much you argue, an orange will never be an apple, however, of course they are both fruits"

 

[Mr Latte]

See the other thread, and fill your boots

Which to sum up would be something like "Apples are different to oranges, and no matter how much you argue, an orange will never be an apple, however, of course they are both fruits"

No to sum up youve been proved incorrect on a few things about the PS3 Eye, continue to go into great detail about lighting conditions and whats required or possible and even twice incorrectly referred to Eye Toy, tut tut. Is it because the guy from the "wii tracking demo" now aparently works on Natal?

Furhtermore all this talk about required lighting you rant on about is pointless as many games will only need to track heads/faces and not full bodies.
The videos clearly showed you were wrong that even standard webcams can accurately track faces with appropiate software and that infared light sources are not necessarily required.

(Below posted on the other thread....)
Really can you not take into account many games that will offer headtracking will not have people walking around a room. They will be sitting on their asses playing like normal.

GT5 will be a fine example, it does not use "Move" but will offer headtracking and Id even go as far to say in low light although not dark conditions.
Bottom line he doesnt know how well it will work, it could be great or it could suck yet continues to spew out lots of big sentences regards lighting and Ive not once stated that PS3 Eye headtracking would be soley used for games that do require people to move around thats were "Move" can be also added.

What matters is PS3 Eye already shows in videos that so far its possible to accurately detect and track faces/heads with precision and it looks promising.
I can only hope it can offer this in the triple screen mode the game (GT5) will aparently offer. Im not so certain it will offer headtracking with a 3D display and users with glasses on.




[SIZE="-1"]Lastly youve BIG'D up Natal a few times, though little has been shown and to be fair it may have benifits in lighting conditions and can in many ways compete with what wii and Move will offer.
It may even have other benifits in accuracy but the biggest drawback of Natal seems to be its limatation to 30HZ. That is not very good considering PS3 Eye works at minimium 60HZ standard resolution and upto 120HZ in lower resolution mode. Therefore any improved advantage in accuracy to detect things may be lost in the speed that it operates and with it also requiring CPU resources technically Id question if its going to be superior. [/SIZE]

 

[Demon]

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