Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [1 - 3rd December 2012]

If you missed it on MOTD, here's Gibson making City's £millions look stupid.


ibzDMc7oVnuo8P.gif
 
DM's point that there needs to be a squad surely goes in Wenger's favour. He (and his coaches/scouts) have a history of spotting talent but also taking players who look as if they are about to have fairly mundaine careers and coaching them into top players (Henry, Gilberto, Anelka, Ljungberg, Overmars, Petit, Viera). Mediocre may be an understatement but even more so in the latter years, he has unlocked potential from really crappy players and made them achieve much more than they would achieve elsewhere.

So Wenger, IMHO, of all people looked best place to gather a squad of good (not world class) players in order to challenge for the title. If he couldnt spot them, he would coach them.

I would love to know what long time backroom staff think. The players dont respect him enough to stick around if they are good; if not to win, to learn. Wenger seems increasingly disillusioned; who wouldnt? he is surrounded by super rich clubs who can buy prospective talent for the long term and overpriced talent in the short term. The odds are massively against him. Man Utd would be the only example to have come out of top in this decade without having cash and they have a legacy of success and a better manager, they also had a MASSIVE standium to bankroll them to some extent.
 
Also quite crazy to see Alan "you don't win anything win kids" Hansen sat next to one of the kids now coming to the end of their careers on MOTD last night. Makes me feel very old!
 
I guess my observation about Arsenal's '2nd XI' for that season was that yes they had an impeccable first team, but still mostly mediocre/unproven players in the bench. I certainly don't think that a 2nd team with the likes of Cygan, Aliadiere, Kanu, Keown etc is much to speak of... My point is that Arsenal have never had much depth in their squad, which is a problem.

I don't think you can compare (now) Cazorla to Michu. Michu has clearly been a great buy, but don't tell me that you would have been happy to see him arrive even for £2million at the start of the season. Also while Arsenal miss having a goal scoring midfielder, creativity is probably more vital, especially after the loss of Fabregas. You don't need to score to be effective- see Modric. And Cazorla clearly has a great eye for a pass, and definitely a step up from an increasingly insignificant Arteta.

Vela had his chances, and he never performed. So maybe he never got a proper long run in the PL, but what if he did? People would have just slammed Wenger for giving him a run.

Last season Michu got 15 goals, and Carzorla got 9, at no point would upon being told we're getting a 15 goal player for 2mil, would I be happier if they turned around and said we're getting a 9 goal 15-17mil player instead. Do you need a goal scoring midfielder, with a 30 goal a season striker, and two wingers scoring well, no, with Giroud, Walcott, Podolski and Gervinho, yes, yes you do need a goal scoring midfielder.

Secondly, Santi has an eye for a pass... maybe. For the past 2 months his form has been meh, with no real stand out performances, shooting far too much when he seems bad at it. How much is the team and who he's passing to and how much is him, i don't know.

Personally 15mil plus on a player a team was seemingly trying to offload, whose place has been taken by someone more effective.... considering he's had more average/poor games than great games so far I'm wondering if we simply bought a half decent player who isn't consistent and wasn't good value. Time will tell, I've neither written him off nor think he's brilliant over a few games, the situation comes across as not great. Think "hey, theres this kid Bebe, he's a real star, you've got 7 minutes to sign him or someone else will". Cazorla "hey, this club is in trouble, they've got this impending date where they need cash desparately so are willing to get their best player go on the cheap, pay up quick or else".

All I'm saying is, not convinced he's a patch on Cesc yet. Arteta's descent into rubbishness this year.... I don't know how much I blame him and again how much I blame the team, same for Vermaelen.

How many times does Vermaelen, or Kos, or Arteta decide to commit the foul, step up early and take out a player or whatever else, answer, WAY too much. But is that because if a player has the chance to go at Mert, he'll do that and leave a massive whole behind the other team will exploit? We've seen Arteta and Verm be better for Arsenal, MUCH better, there is only so long you play "properly" and wait for those around you to screw up, before players start to try and save the team themselves, but it ultimately tends to leave even bigger gaps.

AS for Vela, he DID perform, he was played out of position almost from the start and put in some great performances.

Fact is after 1-2 months getting some match fitness he got 12 goals 7 assists last season in a poor team, and he's got 6 goals 3 assists in 12 this season.

He's not the best striker in the world, he's better than Gervinho, he's better than Chamakh, he's better than Walcott, he's better than Santos(who has been used at left wing several times). he's better than players we've collectively paid around 30mil or so(including Chamakh getting 30-40k a week more than he would have if we paid a transfer fee, he essentially cost 8mil in extra wages rather than transfer fee), thats a player we had and simply refused to give a chance. He's since proven he can perform , very few if any players given 10 mins if that, at the end of games that are basically over, will perform well. Its not that he didn't perform, he wasn't ever given a run in the team, I'm not sure he ever had two starts in a row. Players who join from a club where they played most of a season tend to be in good form, those who haven't played for 6 months look crap, we took an in form Vela, barely played him, then judged an out of form, not match fit player.

You only have to watch him for Sociedad to see the player he is with form and match fitness, he was fantastic last season, he's in great form this season. That was a player who is significantly better than some of the crap in this team, and he would have cost nothing to keep, and nothing extra to play, and if we kept him, played him and didn't buy for instance Gervinho, we'd have an extra 16-17mil to play with, and a better player, AND more goals and assists in the team.
 
Yeah I'm sure those cutting, insightful posts will have fans up in arms! :D

d'oh! :)

Re Suarez and Bale. Both obviously great players. With regard them being ****** or whatever, yes they are a tad.

However Suarez seems to enjoy it - he's actually kind of funny tbf ;)


edit*

Just seen that bite link - thats x rated :(
 
Last edited:
DM's point that there needs to be a squad surely goes in Wenger's favour. He (and his coaches/scouts) have a history of spotting talent but also taking players who look as if they are about to have fairly mundaine careers and coaching them into top players (Henry, Gilberto, Anelka, Ljungberg, Overmars, Petit, Viera). Mediocre may be an understatement but even more so in the latter years, he has unlocked potential from really crappy players and made them achieve much more than they would achieve elsewhere.

This is where people are just completely mistaken, of those players NONE were bad before they joined, and all were brilliant for Arsenal straight away, simple as that.

EDIT;- for the record, Petit captained a top side and played 222 games for Monaco. Gilberto, world cup, best DM in the world, mudane, no, Veira was signed for 3.5mil from Milan after, afaik transfering there then having a bad injury and was stuck in the reserves, however 3.5mil in 96 suggests the potential. Overmars had won a European cup and scored 36 goals for Ajax, only missed out on the 96 euros due to a serious injury. Freddie had interest from a bunch of teams before we signed him, he wasn't some unknown Wenger plucked from nowhere, he was a top player who hadn't moved from his home nation that loads of teams tried to sign.

A player doesn't join and in three training sessions turn a career around, nor do they go from terrible to brilliant in 3 months, or a year. Wenger has taken almost no "youth" players, turned them into great ones then they join the team and have success. He takes undervalued players, who should be being played more, and bought them cheap then used them straight away.

Henry for instance was a striker his entire youth career, one of the best scoring records as a kid through every level... Wenger at Monaco said, "go play on the wing", sound familiar, and a player who was already playing and scoring, got worse, but was "in the system" by that point, known and people thought had loads of potential. He wasn't a winger, he isn't today, he never was, the only thing Wenger did to "fix" him was reverse HIS OWN DECISION at Monaco to turn him into a winger, and hey presto the striker he was before Wenger meddled with him... was once again the best striker on the planet.

Gilberto WON THE DAMN WORLD CUP before he ever played a game for Arsenal, takes unknowns and makes them better..... lol. Gilberto was both old, and very much the final player we knew before he joined Arsenal, long before he joined Arsenal.

More importantly, Wenger has a HISTORY of buying undervalued players who were simply being misused or ignored by their current managers, he does not have a "present" doing this, he hasn't done this for donkeys years.

Wenger 1, was a great manager, I won't be sorry to see him go, because he left 8 years ago, Wenger 2... is the type of manager he used to buy players who were being misused off. 8 years ago Wenger would have bought Vela from a club who refused to play him, and got a 15 goal a season 5-10 assist winger/striker on the cheap. Currently Wenger is the manager who misuses the player, loses him on the cheap while overpaying for crap. Wenger 2 I'll be happy to see go, even if it was because Wenger 1 suddenly appeared from nowhere..... The current Wenger does everything wrong that the old Wenger got right, its like two entirely different managers in all honesty.
 
Last edited:
Yes, Bale does dive* but he doesn't:

- Commit deliberate handball on a regular basis
- Spend all game harassing the referee
- Bite chunks out of his opponent's ear

(* Usually to protect himself. You'd duck out the way if someone tried to punch you, wouldn't you?)

It's foootball for **** sake. There are going to be tackles, saying 'I dive to protect myself' is no less a **** excuse than anyone else.

He dives, it's simple. Spurs fans seem unable to accept anything bad about their golden boy Bale.

He doesn't get anywhere near jumped upon by media/fans than the likes of Suarez/Ronaldo/Drogba etc did, which is stupid because he's absolutely dreadful for diving.
 
do you accept 4th as a positive finish at the end of each season especially when viewed in the context of new stadium, 2 clubs bankrolled by billionaires and Man Utd?
 
It's foootball for **** sake. There are going to be tackles, saying 'I dive to protect myself' is no less a **** excuse than anyone else.

He dives, it's simple. Spurs fans seem unable to accept anything bad about their golden boy Bale.

He doesn't get anywhere near jumped upon by media/fans than the likes of Suarez/Ronaldo/Drogba etc did, which is stupid because he's absolutely dreadful for diving.

We dont accept anything bad about Bale because he has been booked twice in the past 2 games for diving... when he didnt dive. Those yellows will get thrown up against him despite him not actually diving.

What a load of nonsense "it's football" is. Shall we regress to the 60's? Why dont you watch League 1 and Chamionship teams play rather than Barcelona. Damn Barcelona for not crunching everyone into oblivion

Presumably you want to see the more skillful players playing at their best rather than having 7 shades of hell kicked out of them over 90 mins.

The reason the other players got slaughtered is because they acted like petulant children on the pitch. Drogba, Suarez and Ronaldo all feigned inury, pulled contorted faces and scream at the ref. Them diving was part of a package of undesirable behaviour on the pitch, Bale does none of that
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom