Any religious people watch the Wonders of Life last night?

[OCem]

I believe that everything started from somewhere, not so much about Adam and Eve (that seems a little far fetched to me) but I believe that somehow someone was put into Earth and created a generation that invented/discovered things over the years (fire,electricity,telephone) I believe that there is a creator but with so many wrong things happening in this world (innocent and young people dying horrible painful deaths, robbers and rapists getting away with murder etc) it makes me doubt there is someone looking over us..

 

[kedge]

"Fact of Evolution."

Facts should be explained so people can understand what is being said, for example .."what was the first life form to appear on planet earth? and how did it become alive? or something like ..."life can only come from preexisting life of its kind (the natural law of BIOGENESIS) so how does evolution explain how life arose on earth"?

 

[aardvark]

That's based on assumption, this can not be proven using the scientific method, no one has observed this, so it's just assumed it happened.

i'm pretty sure its a scientific fact - in fact i'm very sure it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

[kedge]

I believe that there is a creator but with so many wrong things happening in this world (innocent and young people dying horrible painful deaths, robbers and rapists getting away with murder etc) it makes me doubt there is someone looking over us.

God doesn't cause the suffering, man dominates man to his injury this is very obvious, look at the terrible state of this worldly system of things.

 

[Urgannagru]

You're entitled to your opinion i'm entitled to mine i suppose, i don't believe anyone is born that way, i believe it's very likely the inclination or tendency is strong in some, no one "has to be" engaged in any sexual relationship.

I agree that there is always an element of choice in any action, but why has God created system, where some through no fault of their own are more likely to desire something thats god thinks is wrong. He's not exactly playing fair there.

 

[kedge]

i'm pretty sure its a scientific fact - in fact i'm very sure it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

What has been proven beyond a shadow of douibt using the time tested scientific method of observation, testability, repeatability, falsification or to prove truth, molecule-to-man evolution certainly isn't, evolution of this sort is based on assumption and not on any real scientific method.

 

[kedge]

I agree that there is always an element of choice in any action, but why has God created system, where some through no fault of their own are more likely to desire something thats god thinks is wrong. He's not exactly playing fair there.

God created man and woman perfect, they were without blemish in the beginning, adam and eve disobeyed God's loving commands and they chose for themselves and by their own free will a life of independency from God's knowledge. There are those that choose by their own free will to abstain from something by one's own choice.

 

[Urgannagru]

Your way out of context.

I have to admitt I learned something from this thread in that not all Christians follow the OT and that its used to explain why Jesus came. But could you clarify whether they believe it is still God's word? Because events like Exodus 12:29 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle." seem to be put pretty plainly leave little room to be taken out of context.

Also on a side not if Christians don't follow the OT doesn't that throw the 10 commandments out of the window?

 

[Urgannagru]

God created man and woman perfect, they were without blemish in the beginning, adam and eve disobeyed God's loving commands and they chose for themselves and by their own free will a life of independency from God's knowledge. There are those that choose by their own free will to abstain from something by one's own choice.

Aye that explains why we have to fend for ourselves outside of paradise. But why did he then create a biological system (eg epigenic markers that appear to increase likely hood of homosexuality) that makes it more likely that his creation be corrupted? Surely he's shooting himself in the foot, it's one thing to give someone free will over the matter, it's another thing entirely to push some of them towards what you condemn.

P.S Sorry if I come across as hostile, I am strongly atheist but I am interested in how other people view the world and how literal followers of the bible overcome the paradoxes, as members of my family came from a strict Christadelphian background but left it when they grew up, my grandather left it but started to turn back to it in his last years. I've never really been able to talk about it as I didn't want to offend my grandfather and the other find it a bit of a sore point to discuss.

 

[RDM]

That's a very much Atheist opinion.
I can't speak for anything other than Christianity but the Bible teaches that temptation and desire is natural.
Also God does not make anyone predestinated to sin.

No, it isn't an atheistic view, primarily because the only thing atheism has a view about is the non-existence of God. Atheism has no view whatsoever on homosexuality.

It is the attraction to your own gender that makes you homosexual, not the act of having sex. Otherwise no one is heterosexual until they have sex with your view (which I am not going to say is a Christian view because I don't think you talk for all Christians).

So we have people being born homosexual. What causes this? Why does God so cruelly stack the odds against these people?

No one is forcing anyone into gay homosexuality or gay lesbianism or hetrosexuality, no one is forced into the act.

So what? I would ask the same question again. Why does God stack the odds against homosexuals?

You're entitled to your opinion i'm entitled to mine i suppose, i don't believe anyone is born that way, i believe it's very likely the inclination or tendency is strong in some, no one "has to be" engaged in any sexual relationship.

You are indeed entitled to your opinion, I have never once said you aren't. Regardless of how wrong and bigoted it is. People are born homosexual. Of course they don't have to engage in a sexual relationship but why shouldn't they as the relationship harms no one?

Why should people have to suppress perfectly normal and harmless feelings? Feelings he have had no control over?

I never chose to be heterosexual, did you? If not why do you think it is different for homosexuality?


Edit: For the sake of brevity I have been stating "people are born gay" which isn't quite accurate. The evidence seems to suggest hat sexuality is broadly defined prior to birth rather than specifically set in stone. Sexuality seems to be a spectrum rather than a pacific binary choice.

 

[RDM]

i'm pretty sure its a scientific fact - in fact i'm very sure it has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Kedge doesn't understand science or evolution enough to actually know what he is arguing, it really is pointless discussing it with him.

 

[estebanrey]

You were making claims that are unrepresentative generalisations and showing a distinct ignorance of any argument I may have made regarding the validity of the Old Testament to Christians. There was no reason to bring me into this argument at all and as I said I would thank you to refrain from doing so further.

I did not 'bring you into this', zenf1 did...

Just looked that up.. That's amazing, cheers! It seems pretty straightforward to me but no doubt Castiel will be along shortly to correct us.

I simply answered. I was trying to save you time, but do I get a thank you?

You called me a pedant, which you seem to do quite a lot. There was absolutely no reason for it and as I was not engaged in this thread I would again ask you frame you arguments, such as they are, without mentioning me. Thank you.

Only I didn't call you a pedant, I said the view that you can't use OT verses against Christians (which I'm sorry IS a point you've made many times before as proved by the images of your quotes I posted) is, in my view an “academic, pedantic view”. As someone who proclaims to be a linguist you should be able to see the difference between saying a view someone holds is ‘x’ and saying someone is ‘x’.

Furthermore you keep acting mad because you imply I mis-represented your views and yet you haven’t been able to clarify them or show me where what I said went against stuff you said in the past.

 

[4T5]

Joining late here so bare with me.

Didn't Darwin base his "Theory" on single cells calling them a simple lump of protoplasm & said himself that if those were proven to be more than just single cells then his Theory should be ignored.
Now we know that single cells actually contain over 60 Trillion cells & each one stores information in DNA codes, processes and replicates it in three forms of RNA and thousands of supporting enzymes, exquisitely supplies the system with energy, and seals it in semipermeable phospholipid membranes.

Surely we should ignore Darwins Theory now like he said & stop trying to prove a Theory that is now out of date.

Or you could always show me the evidence to Prove his Theory which I know you can't because if you could then you would be in the National Geographic famous & rich.


* I have had to use some quotes in my text to explain what I meant in words that would be understood.
Any real thinking man knows what I mean though it's just whether they are brave enough to admit it yet.

 

[The Running Man]

Kedge doesn't understand science or evolution enough to actually know what he is arguing, it really is pointless discussing it with him.

When Kedge was created they forgot the brain im afraid.

Jesus did not come to abolish the old laws but fulfill them, when he came the OT is finished. The reasons why the OT is included in the bible is because it allows you to understand how perfect Jesus was and why he came.

EDIT: Just to confirm, yes this is in the Bible.
At the time Jesus came the Jewish priests had tainted the law. This is why you shouldn't listen to a Christian who believes everything his preacher/father/pastor etc says, people will always distort things.

So Jesus ate pork? Did he okay the eating of pork?

The priests might have been corrupt and have changed the law, but the rules that were put in place before the corruption still applied surely? I think the corruption was around tax and collaboration with the Romans..

Not the religious ideals that had held for 2000 years previously..?

Jesus never said that the old laws were abandoned, that was said by people wanting to believe who were NOT of jewish descent and had to find a way to create a new set of rules/religion that meant they could raise jesus without having to be jewish?

 

[Kamwah]

I have to admitt I learned something from this thread in that not all Christians follow the OT and that its used to explain why Jesus came. But could you clarify whether they believe it is still God's word? Because events like Exodus 12:29 "And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle." seem to be put pretty plainly leave little room to be taken out of context.

Also on a side not if Christians don't follow the OT doesn't that throw the 10 commandments out of the window?

Jesus reiterates the 10 commandments iirc. He takes out the Sabbath though.

The OT is still God's word given to Abraham and God is the same today as he was yesterday.

Just to add, the old Jewish laws are also helpful because after Judgement day when the Earth is given back to the jews (and there are a number of nonbelievers that will survive through it all) they will have to follow those laws again.

No, it isn't an atheistic view, primarily because the only thing atheism has a view about is the non-existence of God. Atheism has no view whatsoever on homosexuality.

It is the attraction to your own gender that makes you homosexual, not the act of having sex. Otherwise no one is heterosexual until they have sex with your view (which I am not going to say is a Christian view because I don't think you talk for all Christians).

So we have people being born homosexual. What causes this? Why does God so cruelly stack the odds against these people?

So what? I would ask the same question again. Why does God stack the odds against homosexuals?

Edit: For the sake of brevity I have been stating "people are born gay" which isn't quite accurate. The evidence seems to suggest hat sexuality is broadly defined prior to birth rather than specifically set in stone. Sexuality seems to be a spectrum rather than a pacific binary choice.

It is an Atheistic view because most religious people won't believe that God creates something that's far from imperfect in his eyes and his teachings(I know the Quran states that his creation is perfect which is why Tattoos and piercings are haraam(?) afaik).

I for one don't believe that people are technically born homosexual but things beyond their control can try and lead them on the wrong path. Being homosexual doesn't send you to hell though, it's merely a sin and God knows and accepts we sin. It's what our body wants.

When Kedge was created they forgot the brain im afraid.

So Jesus ate pork? Did he okay the eating of pork?

The priests might have been corrupt and have changed the law, but the rules that were put in place before the corruption still applied surely? I think the corruption was around tax and collaboration with the Romans..

Not the religious ideals that had held for 2000 years previously..?

Jesus never said that the old laws were abandoned, that was said by people wanting to believe who were NOT of jewish descent and had to find a way to create a new set of rules/religion that meant they could raise jesus without having to be jewish?

Jesus did not eat pork. When he came and lived his whole life keeping the old Jewish law it was 'fulfilled' and even the Jews aren't needed to follow it anymore yet they don't believe in Jesus so they still keep it mostly.

Yes they still stood but the Jews turned away from Jesus because they didn't believe he was the prophet he said he was. God turned to the gentiles who were everyone who wasn't a Jew and knew they wouldn't be able to live by the old Jewish law, he mentions how they seek wisdom but how we are also like dogs.

If that's what you want to believe then feel free too, tbh that's what I think of Islam so I understand what you're saying.

The bible makes sense to me, Jesus offered us salvation through the cross and all we have to do is accept his sacrifice.

 

[aardvark]

What has been proven beyond a shadow of douibt using the time tested scientific method of observation, testability, repeatability, falsification or to prove truth, molecule-to-man evolution certainly isn't, evolution of this sort is based on assumption and not on any real scientific method.

i was referring to the formation of carbon which you seemed to doubt.

 

[RDM]

It is an Atheistic view because most religious people won't believe that God creates something that's far from imperfect in his eyes and his teachings(I know the Quran states that his creation is perfect which is why Tattoos and piercings are haraam(?) afaik).

Atheism addresses a single point. The existence of God. It does not address human sexuality in any way shape or form. Why are you ascribing more to atheism? How can atheism have a view on sexuality, evolution and morality when the ONLY question it answers is "Is there a God?"

The imperfect creation argument sorts of falls over when two of the Abrahamic faiths are huge fans of cutting bits of penis off....

I for one don't believe that people are technically born homosexual but things beyond their control can try and lead them on the wrong path. Being homosexual doesn't send you to hell though, it's merely a sin and God knows and accepts we sin. It's what our body wants.

You can believe what you want, the evidence however says otherwise.

Did you specifically choose to be heterosexual? If not, why do you think homosexuals specifically choose to be heterosexual?

You didn't answer why you think God stacks the odds against some people either.

 

[Haggisman]

God created man and woman perfect, they were without blemish in the beginning,

If this is true, then

adam and eve disobeyed God's loving commands

Simply wouldn't have happened.

In which case, either:

God purposefully didn't create them perfect, and therefore is responsible for all of the "abominations" you love shouting about so much. (abortion, homosexuality, shrimp, etc.)

Or

God tried and failed to make them perfect. In which case, he's not evil, just incompetent.

the way i see it is abnormalities in the human beings mutated gene pool. Most mutations are not beneficial to the species, imho.

The irony being that the only reason we are "human beings" is because of millions of years of mutations

 

[Kamwah]

Atheism addresses a single point. The existence of God. It does not address human sexuality in any way shape or form. Why are you ascribing more to atheism? How can atheism have a view on sexuality, evolution and morality when the ONLY question it answers is "Is there a God?"

The imperfect creation argument sorts of falls over when two of the Abrahamic faiths are huge fans of cutting bits of penis off....

I'm saying it because a religious person cannot believe that their God creates imperfect creations. That is why I'm pointing out that an it's somewhat an Atheist thing to say.

Also a quick mention to people with birth defects be them physical or mental, I can't remember the exact specifics but God can punish anyone up to 2 generations after you for your sins. I believe that's where they come from and yes it is unfair but it doesn't mean they can't receive salvation.


Circumcision is a covenant between you and god. Old Jewish law popping up again.
Christians only need the circumcision in your soul and the Holy Ghost/Spirit within.

You can believe what you want, the evidence however says otherwise.

Did you specifically choose to be heterosexual? If not, why do you think homosexuals specifically choose to be heterosexual?

You didn't answer why you think God stacks the odds against some people either.

I'm not of the education to explain to you why people like what they like and most people have a natural attraction to the opposite sex in a scientific way.

I don't think he stacks the odds against anyone, my faith tells me salvation is through the cross and denial leads to damnation. Sin does not send you to the eternal fire.

---

Just to add to the thread..

I believe in evolution, I don't believe Science is against God in any way. It's just people trying to understand the law that God has set out.

I also don't believe Adam & Eve were the first beings on this planet, he tells them to replenish and therefore there must have been something before us. IMO Genesis has a few time skips that aren't mentioned.

And I am Pro-choice for abortion. There's reports there was once a plant that could be eaten which could cause an abortion.

 

[Urgannagru]

Jesus reiterates the 10 commandments iirc. He takes out the Sabbath though.

The OT is still God's word given to Abraham and God is the same today as he was yesterday.

Just to add, the old Jewish laws are also helpful because after Judgement day when the Earth is given back to the jews (and there are a number of nonbelievers that will survive through it all) they will have to follow those laws again.

Thank-you for your concise reply, just had a quick google (yes not the best of ways to understand the text ) and yes the commandments are referred to again in the new testment, though not as clearly as as in the OT, how ever Jesus does repeatedly refer to people having to keep to god's law, which him being Jewish I'd of thought he'd be referring to all of the OT. So even if his coming had revoked all the old law wouldn't him saying that people should follow it bring it back into being?

Also if the OT is god's word, all nastiness he carried out must be true whether or not people have to follow the rules stated in it.

Again sorry if I'm taking things out of context I'm not a biblical scholar, I just find it hard to understand how the bible can be taken as god's truth rather than a guide written by man.