DirectX and OpenGL will start offering low-level access in order to reduce draw overhead

Rusty0611 · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:25

Well this thread just got worse.

Angst · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:28

Rusty0611 said:
Well this thread just got worse.

Well im sorry but i visit the gfx forum to catch up on news and the odd benchmark of stuff im interested in but every time its buried under a mountain of fanboys and butt hurt.

Gregster · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:30

This thread is about DX12 and the possibility that it will kill off Mantle. Wccftech do get some things right, but also get lots of things wrong and for me, I feel if AMD open up Mantle to more devs NOW, it will have a good chance of survival but if they keep it closed for any length of time, DX12 will be the industry standard. Mantle will end up like PhysX and only in sponsored games and let's be honest, would you AMD guys care if a couple of games a year went 110 fps instead of 100?

No way are nVidia taking on Mantle and will do everything in their 'money filled coffers' to make sure it isn't a success.

If it was AMD who made MS work on DX12, then fantastic, if it was MS just working on DX12, then fantastic and no one can deny that we don't need it/want it. AMD guys seem to be under some illusion that Mantle is the best thing ever, when all you have is 1 game that it partially works for (don't bother to pull me up on that again, as I have seen problem after problem with it). Thief doesn't need it, as it is on a very old engine, SEV3 could be good for AMD owners, after seeing the SEV2 thread and Star Craft could be the game that defines Mantle but other than that, I don't see anything else worth getting excited about.

Puppetmaster · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:32

Maybe all the Nvidia users are worried that 290's might overtake 780's and Titans in the Benchmark threads with mantle?

We can only hope.

jakspyder · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:33

WOuld be nice if OGL came out on top of directX.

My only gripe with DX is the continued windows dominance. To be fair i prefer windows, but perhaps thats because its the only platform that plays the games I want to play.

Angst · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:34

Gregster said:
If it was AMD who made MS work on DX12, then fantastic, if it was MS just working on DX12, then fantastic and no one can deny that we don't need it/want it.

Iv'e got to agree, at the end of the day progress is progress. Which for me and anybody can never be a bad thing. I'm just hoping mantle is fixed soon and with decent games so it can show what real world advantages it gives to more than one broken game as you said.

Gregster · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:36

jakspyder said:
WOuld be nice if OGL came out on top of directX.

My only gripe with DX is the continued windows dominance. To be fair i prefer windows, but perhaps thats because its the only platform that plays the games I want to play.

Yer, I couldn't agree more in honesty. I had a little play with SteamOS on my 60GB drive but gave up after a few hours of messing about but I can see the potential for it. It is such a shame the Khronos group don't have big bucks helping it along.

Angst · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:37

jakspyder said:
WOuld be nice if OGL came out on top of directX.

My only gripe with DX is the continued windows dominance. To be fair i prefer windows, but perhaps thats because its the only platform that plays the games I want to play.

This could only be a good thing, shake up the market some more.

Gregster · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:39

Puppetmaster said:
Maybe all the Nvidia users are worried that 290's might overtake 780's and Titans in the Benchmark threads with mantle? We can only hope.

Possibly but have you seen the Batman: Arkham Origins thread? It took a KPE 780Ti edition to beat a 290X and this game is geared toward nVidia (or nVidia sponsored). The funniest bit about it is, AMD are locked out of optimizations for B:AO and nVidia are in control of AMD's optimizations.... Do I need to say anymore?

gpuerrilla · 9 Mar 2014 at 10:42

Gregster said:
AMD guys seem to be under some illusion that Mantle is the best thing ever

No, not for me anyway it was a bonus when upgrading so will be good to reap any benefits over the lifespan of it's use.

Gregster said:
Thief doesn't need it, as it is on a very old engine

Very true.

GoogalyMoogaly · 9 Mar 2014 at 11:18

I do like all the "DirectX 12 is speculation, Mantle is here now" comments. Because back in December and January there was no speculation about an unreleased API called Mantle was there?
And we didn't have a 200 page argument/graph thread on it either...

Also Mantle is here "sort of". As people always point out when issues are mentioned it's an alpha/beta not the full thing. It's also currently in 1 game.

I've said it before, but I don't see why a better DirectX is a bad thing. Unless AMD users just wanted to have the performance edge over Nvidia users and are afraid this will even the playing field somewhat. Surely as long as your cards perform well it's not a problem if other people's do too?

4737Joker · 9 Mar 2014 at 11:25

Some Dev's are already coding for more than 1 api (mantle and DX), the guys who are making star swarm implemented mantle late on and stated it was easy to code for and was quick to do.

Plus 1 strong factor Mantle has going for it is people don't need to upgrade from windows 7 in order to use it. Now if DX is shipped with windows 9 only which could turn out to be **** not many people may switch to it.

Mantle would still be attractive to Devs if the amount of AMD users able to utilise it outweighed the amount of people running windows 9.

All if's and buts i know, i hope we end up with something great at the end of it be it Mantle/DX/OGL.

4737Joker · 9 Mar 2014 at 11:29

GoogalyMoogaly said:
I do like all the "DirectX 12 is speculation, Mantle is here now" comments. Because back in December and January there was no speculation about an unreleased API called Mantle was there?
And we didn't have a 200 page argument/graph thread on it either...

Also Mantle is here "sort of". As people always point out when issues are mentioned it's an alpha/beta not the full thing. It's also currently in 1 game.

I've said it before, but I don't see why a better DirectX is a bad thing. Unless AMD users just wanted to have the performance edge over Nvidia users and are afraid this will even the playing field somewhat. Surely as long as your cards perform well it's not a problem if other people's do too?

There probably is a few select AMD fanboys that are crying in to their pillows about it for whatever reason, but i think most of the AMD users don't care. At the end of the day dx12 isn't locked to any one vendor so it's good for everyone, unlink Mantle which is currently locked to 1 vendor. Don't tar us all with the same brush, some of usd are excited for DX12

Steampunk · 9 Mar 2014 at 11:32

Rusty0611 said:
It wasn't selective quoting. You were the one trying to make a point about UE4 which was exactly the same thing as you were trying to lambast somebody else for.

Big wet fail.

By selectively quoting what I wrote, and not what I was replying to, you completely changed the message.

I was replying in the same tone, manner, and words to indicate what I thought of the reply. It's called "a taste of your own medicine". I did the same to you. Seems it all went over your head.

LtMatt · 9 Mar 2014 at 11:35

4737Joker said:
There probably is a few select AMD fanboys that are crying in to their pillows about it for whatever reason, but i think most of the AMD users don't care. At the end of the day dx12 isn't locked to any one vendor so it's good for everyone, unlink Mantle which is currently locked to 1 vendor. Don't tar us all with the same brush, some of usd are excited for DX12

DX12 is win win for AMD users. Can't see a logical reason why anyone would think otherwise. Until it arrives we can keep using DX11.1 or enjoy using Mantle. (if the game supports it)

r7slayer · 9 Mar 2014 at 12:01

Well if it's true that Microsoft has finally managed to do some work with their DX and overcome the CPU overhead and get it to something which mantle is currently doing then it's win win for everyone AMD and Nvidia peeps. Allthough it will likely be DX12 which will reap these benefits and also mean that you will require the newest Microsoft OS and a newer GPU that supports DX12 right? So doesn't that mean only a minority of people will benefit from DX12 where mantle will benefit a lot more people? Not to mention most games don't even ultalise newer DX stuff anyway.

I'm all for DX 12 solving the CPU overhead but will I ever benefit from it is the question im wondering? Where as with mantle I can. I can't see mantle getting killed off at all as it's much more than just an cpu overhead solution. Like drunkenmaster said DX is locked down to Windows where mantle is open to other OS and platforms.

Gregster · 9 Mar 2014 at 12:04

I did ask earlier but not sure if it got missed or nobody knows...

"Why would we need a new GPU for DX12? What makes the current cards incapable of running DX12"

I would rather hang onto my Titans for a couple of years to be honest but if it does need a new GPU to run DX12, I will get one (or 2).

Edit:

The same goes for Mantle... Could Mantle not be optimised to run on 6 series cards?

r7slayer · 9 Mar 2014 at 12:09

Gregster said:
I did ask earlier but not sure if it got missed or nobody knows...

"Why would we need a new GPU for DX12? What makes the current cards incapable of running DX12"

I would rather hang onto my Titans for a couple of years to be honest but if it does need a new GPU to run DX12, I will get one (or 2).

Edit:

The same goes for Mantle... Could Mantle not be optimised to run on 6 series cards?

Yea I've always wondered that about DX and only newer cards can support it. I only just upgraded to a 290x so ill be peed off some what if only newer cards support DX12 for example.

I thought the idea was to get Mantle to be supported across all cards but not sure. From what I can see AMD are currently focusing Mantle on GCN architecture but I can't see/understand why all cards wont be supported in the future. Hell if Nvidia can adopt it then it should work then right?

Gregster · 9 Mar 2014 at 12:15

r7slayer said:
Yea I've always wondered that about DX and only newer cards can support it. I only just upgraded to a 290x so ill be peed off some what if only newer cards support DX12 for example.

I thought the idea was to get Mantle to be supported across all cards but not sure. From what I can see AMD are currently focusing Mantle on GCN architecture but I can't see/understand why all cards wont be supported in the future. Hell if Nvidia can adopt it then it should work then right?

Yer, that is what I am getting at. I understand Mantle will be all cards compatible eventually (I just looked it up). I remember buying a 260 and very soon after, DX10 was released and for me to get the benefit, I had to upgrade to a 4 series card.

Steampunk · 9 Mar 2014 at 12:19

r7slayer said:
I'm all for DX 12 solving the CPU overhead but will I ever benefit from it is the question im wondering? Where as with mantle I can. I can't see mantle getting killed off at all as it's much more than just an cpu overhead solution. Like drunkenmaster said DX is locked down to Windows where mantle is open to other OS and platforms.

I can see Mantle, or a Mantle-like thin API being submitted by AMD to MS for inclusion in DX as this is how many features get added into DX by the card manufacturers.

However, I also can see MS tying DX 12 into Win 9 or maybe 8.1, so there could be a strong argument for AMD continuing to support Mantle for other platforms.