Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (March Poll)

[ebilcake]

A lot of scaremongering from both sides.

The main out campaign is based upon the fear of immigration rather than benefits of trade.

I don't think controlling immigration is scaremongering, it's something that concerns a lot of people.

It may have started off as the main point, but it's moving more towards us being a real democracy and not losing control of our own Country to EU bureaucrats.

You would have thought the in campaign would have facts ready to debunk the out campaign by now, but they don't, when asked they claim to be waiting on reports or research, it's a bit late for that.

They've had more than enough time.

 

[scorza]

So it's irrelevant!

No it's not irrelevant because it's pointing out what we could do if we re-took control of our borders again.

 

[[TW]Fox]

No it's not irrelevant because it's pointing out what we could do if we re-took control of our borders again.

We could have done it already (more than half of our net migration is from outside of the EU) and yet we have not done so.

'We could maybe perhaps probably might do this!' has to be one of the weakest arguments you've made so far.

 

[thep02]

Please stop quoting that site, is the wings over Scotland of brexit.

Mate the amount of times scorza uses breitbart as a source indicates he reads many other sources that would garner even more ridicule and derision if he were to use them, ats or infowars spring to mind.

 

[Mr Jack]

So again you're relying on this straw man that if we left the EU, all EU migration would stop immediately. It wouldn't. Under the skill points based system I favour then it would be fairly easy to ensure scientists get to the top of the list if that's what our government decides that is what we need.

You continue to act as if having to undergo visa checks is no barrier. It is. Doubly so for anyone who wants to relocate their family. It's also extremely damaging for any small scale collaboration. For example, I spend four weeks working in a lab in Copenhagen in 2014 and one of the members of that lab spent two weeks working with us in Leicester. Because of the enormous benefits of free movement this was just as simple as working in another lab in the UK but had there been a visa system in place there would have been a lengthy procedure to undergo in order to allow this collaboration - under those circumstances I'm not sure we would have bothered with the collaboration at all.

 

[Skunkworks]

The In crowd seem to think the UK will hermetically seal itself after an out vote.

 

[Mr Jack]

The In crowd seem to think the UK will hermetically seal itself after an out vote.

Actually we think that we have no idea what the UK's relationship with the rest of the EU will look like. Outers have wildly divergent views on what it will be; if we rejoin the EEA and have free movement then we will retain most of the benefits of the EU but lose a whole load of influence.

But most Outers are arguing for the loss of free movement. The loss of free movement will be a huge blow to the UK.

 

[FishFluff]

I know, hence I pointed out that it was the system I favoured, not the one which would be implemented if we vote to Leave. I'm not really bothered about how difficult it is or isn't to get into Australia - they're able to control set their own immigration policy and their system seems to work for them. We need to reduce net migration to the UK to the historical norm of 50,000, we can't go on absorbing an additional population the size of a city like Cardiff every year - it's unsustainable. It's only going to get worse as the EU expands eastwards, including to Turkey.

How many researchers do you think earn enough to meet our immigration criteria? Hint: Not many. Once again you're posting absolute garbage about a subject you know nothing about.

 

[FishFluff]

The In crowd seem to think the UK will hermetically seal itself after an out vote.

I thought out voters wanted less immigration and were against free movement of people within the EU? Isn't that the point of voting to leave? If it's just about the money then the sums don't add up. If it's about our 'sovereignty', then again, the case for leaving is nonsense.

 

[Mr Jack]

How many researchers do you think earn enough to meet our immigration criteria? Hint: Not many. Once again you're posting absolute garbage about a subject you know nothing about.

It's not like we need to speculate about this: there are a great many researchers from countries we don't have free movement with who would like to work in Britain. We see the effects of visas on them all the time.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

We also see that almost all the students from outside the EU are from very wealthy families and can afford the added fees. If we left the EU and eu students were treated the same as all other students, we pretty much limit ourselves to only accepting the wealthy rather than the talented regardless of economic background.

 

[thep02]

Re Osbourne's funding of science the fool really dropped the ball with our graphene research by his freezing of funding, with all respect to the many tories on this board our current govt are a parhetic example of the party, we have a situation where gove and ids are percieved as big beasts, beasts maybe but not big by any stretch.

 

[Skunkworks]

I thought out voters wanted less immigration and were against free movement of people within the EU?

Immigration isn’t a binary choice between uncontrolled and zero.

 

[scorza]

We could have done it already (more than half of our net migration is from outside of the EU) and yet we have not done so.

'We could maybe perhaps probably might do this!' has to be one of the weakest arguments you've made so far.

If we leave the EU we will definitely have control of our borders again - no coulds or maybes about it.

You continue to act as if having to undergo visa checks is no barrier. It is. Doubly so for anyone who wants to relocate their family. It's also extremely damaging for any small scale collaboration. For example, I spend four weeks working in a lab in Copenhagen in 2014 and one of the members of that lab spent two weeks working with us in Leicester. Because of the enormous benefits of free movement this was just as simple as working in another lab in the UK but had there been a visa system in place there would have been a lengthy procedure to undergo in order to allow this collaboration - under those circumstances I'm not sure we would have bothered with the collaboration at all.

A friend of mine recently returned from the USA, which doesn't have free movement for UK citizens, where he has been working on business for 6 weeks. I think you're stretching it a bit suggesting that leaving the EU will stop you working in Denmark for four weeks in future.

I thought out voters wanted less immigration and were against free movement of people within the EU? Isn't that the point of voting to leave? If it's just about the money then the sums don't add up. If it's about our 'sovereignty', then again, the case for leaving is nonsense.

Wanting less migration isn't the same thing as hermetically sealing the UK. The clue is in the word 'less'

 

[Danthus]

If we leave the EU we will definitely have control of our borders again - no coulds or maybes about it.

Doesn't mean for one minute any government would exercise any controls though.

 

[scorza]

Doesn't mean for one minute any government would exercise any controls though.

So in future that government can be held to account for their decisions on immigration. At the moment we have a situation where they can't really because we've given away control of our borders to the EU.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

If we leave the EU we will definitely have control of our borders again - no coulds or maybes about it.

So we will have the skill point system like you suggest then?

Because that's been your main could and maybe for the science argument, as well as the could and maybe of the UK making up for the rest of the funding.

 

[scorza]

So we will have the skill point system like you suggest then?

Because that's been your main could and maybe for the science argument, as well as the could and maybe of the UK making up for the rest of the funding.

We could have a skill point system if we wanted one and left the EU. At the moment we can't have one even if we did want one.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

We could have a skill point system if we wanted one and left the EU. At the moment we can't have one even if we did want one.

More coulds and maybes but what happened to your 'there are no coulds and maybes about it'

 

[Mr Jack]

I think you're stretching it a bit suggesting that leaving the EU will stop you working in Denmark for four weeks in future.

You're not listening. I didn't say it would prevent it, I said it would make it more difficult and that those barriers are significant to the point that in some, perhaps many, cases it won't be worth the hassle and thus de facto stop it. Anecdotes about a friend who did it in the US aren't much of an answer.

Without the crystal ball to know what the post-Brexit arrangements might be you can't say exactly how large those barriers will be. What is clear is that the UK has a lot more successful collaborations with the EU than it does with the US. That can, at least in part, be attributed to the nurturing effect of the EU's science funding and free movement within the EU.