Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[Arazi]

Thanks for calling me a liar this do you?

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Genuine?

Where's me popcorn

 

[Destination]

He truly is a grade A ****.

Would you give me a brief list of ten reasons why?
The man has done a lot of good in his life.

 

[BaronVonDuncs]

I studied economics at University College London (undergraduate) and Brasenose College, University of Oxford (postgraduate). We can all trade degrees and so on, but so what? So I have some idea about economics, but to see the EU referendum as a matter of economics is to completely avoid the point. Fundamentally, the EU's direction is that of political union. Do we want to be part of this empire they are attempting to construct? That, seems to me, to be one of the central questions, and it is a question of power and politics.

Yeah agreed, comparing the size of educational penises is not really conducive to sensible debate. The allegation though was that I didn't understand market forces the fact I have spent some time studying it seemed a counter to that assertion but its a cheap point really.

Its not just about economics I agree with you. The impact on the UK will be economic but its also a political and social question as well. I don't discount the importance of economics on the issues and in the short to medium term they will be highly significant.

I would however also disagree on the claim that the EU is moving towards political union. The mood across Europe is not really very supportive of that idea and a lot of the EU officials are cognizant of that. I don't accept that the EU is trying to build an empire so I don't see the question being one of choosing to join this EU empire.

However at least being concerned about power and politics is a legitimate question rather than the mostly weak nonsense that seems to dribble out of a lot of leavers mouths.

 

[scorza]

Thanks for calling me a liar this do you?
...

I didn't call you I liar - this forum has a history of people making claims about their fantastic lives and history and on more than a few occasions it turns out to be BS, so excuse me for being sceptical.

Must admit I'm surprised that you'd post personal info to win an internet argument.

 

[izzop]

Sure was a good read. More should read it.

Indeed they should.

There have been a number of good articles from them, both for "For" and "Against" Leaving.

 

[Third Opinion]

Maybe we should have a democratic system whereby we elect representatives to make decisions on our behalf?

I earn around 25k a year and don't have a degree.

I take it I should only represented by somebody and not have a vote?

 

[bayo000]

Name one country in the eu where a brit can turn up and get an unskilled job.

They might not get unskilled job but with bit of effort and learning local language they can get some good jobs just because they speak English. English language is a very good "skill" in most nations around the world.

 

[BaronVonDuncs]

You studied at Harvard but don't know the difference between "your" and "you're"? I don't want to call you a liar, but looking at the evidence.....

Also, you never responded to our little debate, here and here.

I couldn't be bothered to be honest as it seemed pointless. You made claims about the separation of powers and then when the UK system was critiqued on that basis you jumped to the question of direct election instead. I just don't see the point in discussing it if you can't even manage to stick to your own discussion points.

Your issues around the ECHR and HRA verged on Daily Fail nonsense as well so again just couldn't be bothered to bang my head against that wall.

My grammar may sometimes be weak but that is having a 70's comprehensive education for you. Typing too quickly with two fingers probably doesn't help either. I will try harder.

 

[BaronVonDuncs]

I didn't call you I liar - this forum has a history of people making claims about their fantastic lives and history and on more than a few occasions it turns out to be BS, so excuse me for being sceptical.

Must admit I'm surprised that you'd post personal info to win an internet argument.

Its my name and a picture, not that much info. Besides I have held public office so lots of pictures of me on the internet already and I have a short entry in Wikipedia so aspects of my life are already in the public domain.

 

[davewhite04]

Right back at you. Don't bother voting to change it.

You're right, I'm voting out to make sure it doesn't get worse.

In one year, EU immigrants totalling the population of Newcastle upon Tyne? It's crazy... that is reason alone to leave. We must hope that at least Osbourne goes if we get out. He has been in the bankers pocket from day 1.

 

[estebanrey]

'A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.'
​

So the argument that immigration won't stop if we Brexit is being made by Remain. Its a counter to the argument being made by Leave that Brexit will reduce immigration. Hence not in any way a straw man argument.

You realise that definition fits the next paragraph right? The argument from Leavers is that we could control immigration better if we left the EU, so arguing that it won't stop immigration is a straw man in exactly the same sense that some leavers make a strawman when they argue that trade won't stop when remainers are saying trade will become harder.

The fact that leavers like you don't even understand the English language sufficiently to make cogent arguments does not really persuade me that you are the kind of intellectual heavyweights that are correct about Brexit.

Ohhh a strawman and a ad-hominem.

I studied economics as a postgraduate at Harvard University, so maybe.

Yeah, we've all got a degree mate. Then I'm surprised you think a company like BMW have some untapped supply of customer somewhere else just as big as their current biggest single market and are just ignoring them out of some kind of loyalty to us being the EU.

Not necessarily as the impact of scale costs or trade arrangements or currency fluctuation might all reduce the benefit of those other markets.

Then your implication that they wouldn't be that desperate to get an agreement in place with a non-EU Britain falls down. Unless you are suggesting they are willing to take on the costs of 'trade arrangements or currency fluctuation' just to spit us in this 'other market they'll just sell our share to'.

The point being made is that in the event that due to external factors like Tariffs and currency fluctuations the price for UK consumers might rise which basic micro economics suggests will reduce demand. In that circumstance then the response would be to seek other markets or reduce supply/production.

Yes but you're forgetting that for decades they have been competing with an unfair advantage and all we're asking is them to compete like everybody else.

The top 2 best selling cars in the UK are made by Ford, and American company. What does that tell you? That we can strike agreements so good with countries on our own that you can overcome the tariff free advantages we are obliged to give to others.

But i read the sun, so it's all the same really isnt it? /s

I have a degree from Oxford, but nice try

 

[[TW]Fox]

I earn around 25k a year and don't have a degree.

I take it I should only represented by somebody and not have a vote?

You have a vote - for your representative. It has nothing to do with your income as usually the same applies whether you earn 25k or 250k. We vote for representatives in parliament who make decisions on our behalf.

 

[davewhite04]

I was born here so why leave? The fact that I would like to see it change does not mean I want to or should have to leave.

Besides it the United Kingdom that's the subject of this decision not just Britain.

My interest lies in Britain, and making it Great again. If you want to get American about it, be my guest. I'm English.

What changes do you want?

 

[Roar87]

You're right, I'm voting out to make sure it doesn't get worse.

In one year, EU immigrants totalling the population of Newcastle upon Tyne? It's crazy... that is reason alone to leave. We must hope that at least Osbourne goes if we get out. He has been in the bankers pocket from day 1.

Wait are you saying that a trust fund baby called Gideon Oliver Osborne who's married to the daughter of a Lord and who's Father is a Baronet is in the pocket of the rich elite?!

 

[The Mad Rapper]

I have a degree from Oxford, but nice try

Brooks doesn't count

 

[Arazi]

Yeah, we've all got a degree mate. Then I'm surprised you think a company like BMW have some untapped supply of customer somewhere else just as big as their current biggest single market and are just ignoring them out of some kind of loyalty to us being the EU.

I was thinking that, if BMW have backup in the event of losing thousands of customers (will never happen) for their cars then i am pretty sure they would be selling to them anyway, I don't know what logic it would be to not be selling to them.

 

[davewhite04]

Wait are you saying that a trust fund baby called Gideon Oliver Osborne who's married to the daughter of a Lord and who's Father is a Baronet is in the pocket of the rich elite?!

 

[The Mad Rapper]

You have a vote - for your representative. It has nothing to do with your income as usually the same applies whether you earn 25k or 250k. We vote for representatives in parliament who make decisions on our behalf.

You might. Others vote for representatives in Parliament to deal with the minor matters, but expect to be directly consulted on significant issue like this.

For the umpteenth time.

 

[davewhite04]

I was thinking that, if BMW have backup for in the event of losing thousands of customers for their cars then i am pretty sure they would be selling to them anyway, I don't know what logic it would be to not be selling to them.

Trust me, BMW would lose billions if Britain stopped trade.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

He just debunked that

Transcript of the Guardian's conversation with Michael Gove's father
Severin Carrell

Severin Carrell

This is a full transcript of the interview the Guardian had by telephone with Earnest Gove, Michael Gove’s father, on the morning Tuesday 14 June. It has been slightly edited to remove verbal tics and some slight repetition.

Earnest Gove: “Hello?”

Severin Carrell: Oh, hello, is that Earnest Gove?

EG: “Yeah, it is.”

SC: Hi. My name is Severin Carrell, I’m the Guardian newspaper’s Scotland editor. I’m just phoning to see whether you’d be able to give me some more information about what happened to your family business in the early ‘80s. Just following up on the interviews your son Michael has been giving and the speeches he has made about the CFP [Common Fisheries Policy].

EG: “There’s nothing really to go back about anyway because it just was, when Europe went into fishing, the industry more or less collapsed down and I just packed in and got a job with another firm, you know. That was all that was happening.

“That was all that was happening. It wasn’t any hardship or things like that, or what you call it: I just decided to call it a day and just sold up my business and went on to work with someone else, you know.”

SC: Right. So there wasn’t any hardship?

EG: “It wasn’t because of hardship but I couldn’t see any future in it, that type of thing, the business that I had, so I just said I wasn’t going to go into all the trouble of going hardship, and things like that. I just decided to sell up and get a job with someone else, you know. That was all.”

SC: Okay.

EG: “And that’s all it was, like.”

SC: The reason I’m interested is it’s just that I have covered the fishing industry quite a bit in my work and I was a bit puzzled about whether, how the CFP itself would’ve been the sole cause of problems in Aberdeen because I know from other people in the industry that the biggest issues in the early, mid 1980s were to do with the 200 mile nautical limit, the cod wars; then there was the competition in Aberdeen harbour with North Sea oil and gas, and there was the dockworkers strike, all of that happening making life in Aberdeen much more difficult.

EG: “You had all that going on. So, to be quite honest, I just decided to sell up really and then go ahead and try and make a good living out of it, I can get a job with someone I could be more or less employed and know I was going to be employed.

“But as I say, yes oil and everything else came along and things like that. I mean, as you understand, that is just what industry does. It goes on and on and on and you go from one to another and to another. As regards my own business, I just decided, as I said, that things weren’t going to work well with me, and I decided to pack it in and that’s all.”

SC: Right. OK. When was that?

“I couldn’t tell you the dates. It’s eh … I’m getting on for 80 now. So all these type of things is not staying in my head, you know.”

SC: OK. But would it have been around 1983, ’84, ’85, that kind of time?

EG: “I couldn’t really say because I can’t remember to be honest. But that’s all that I can tell you.”

SC: My final question Mr Gove, if you don’t mind. Were you aware that Michael had been saying that the CFP had destroyed your business? And it was solely to blame for the business folding?

“Yeah but I’m not saying anything because I’m not going against my son and I’m not going … he’s got his own policies, his own mind, and reasons, and I’m not going to give out any information at all to turn round and say one way or another. No, no, I’m not going to start fighting over [heads](?).

“As far as I’m concerned, I decided it wasn’t going to be my way of living, the way things was going, and I decided to change it. That was all.”

SC: Alright

EG: “Okay?”

SC: Thanks very much, I’m grateful.

EG: “Okay? Right.”

SC: Bye now, bye bye.

Let people make their mind up on what was said.