Poll: The EU Referendum: How Will You Vote? (June Poll)

[smargh]

You're right, I'm voting out to make sure it doesn't get worse.

In one year, EU immigrants totalling the population of Newcastle upon Tyne? It's crazy... that is reason alone to leave. We must hope that at least Osbourne goes if we get out. He has been in the bankers pocket from day 1.

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06077.pdf

Page 13. EU and non-EU immigration is much the same, and the overall number increase isn't that much in terms of the overall population.

If:

• Immigrants spoke fluent English (so they weren't as "noticeable")
• They didn't end up stuffed into rented accommodation during a housing crisis (.gov.uk's fault)
• Companies didn't import cheap labour in bulk, negatively impacting specific areas & further affecting rent & house prices. I believe this is mainly .gov.uk's fault, but happy to be corrected on that assumption from someone with knowledge of employment law, housing laws, council abilities etc. Sports Direct example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35604776

... then I don't think people would actually care about immigration. Nobody seems to really care about the equal number of non-EU immigrants. As it is, though, nationalism is gaining in many EU countries, and could potentially [hasten?] the downfall of the EU and result in some very unfortunate consequences.

 

[bayo000]

It wasn't 410,000 tons in 2002, but that's not important - if you already started let's finish that thought - ten years later, in 2012, UK annual stats reached 628,000 tonnes of fish while Denmark stats dropped to 508,000 tonnes. That year only Spain caught more fish than UK in the entire EU, and for the past 10 years UK somehow managed to be either second largest or third largest fishing industry within EU year after year....

He likes to pick only the bits of articles that suit his point and ignore everything else.

 

[Nate--IRL--]

Trust me, BMW would lose billions if Britain stopped trade.

Who mentioned stopping trade? Whoever suggested that will happen, is clearly an idiot.

Nate

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Who mentioned stopping trade? Whoever suggested that will happen, is clearly an idiot.

Nate

Seems rather an own goal people don't want to be part of Europe but in the last few decades have bought loads of German and French made cars,and will probably still do so.

Perhaps if more people bought cars made over here,we would have more car plants still in the UK.

 

[BaronVonDuncs]

You realise that definition fits the next paragraph right? The argument from Leavers is that we could control immigration better if we left the EU, so arguing that it won't stop immigration is a straw man in exactly the same sense that some leavers make a strawman when they argue that trade won't stop when remainers are saying trade will become harder.



Ohhh a strawman and a ad-hominem.



Yeah, we've all got a degree mate. Then I'm surprised you think a company like BMW have some untapped supply of customer somewhere else just as big as their current biggest single market and are just ignoring them out of some kind of loyalty to us being the EU.



Then your implication that they wouldn't be that desperate to get an agreement in place with a non-EU Britain falls down. Unless you are suggesting they are willing to take on the costs of 'trade arrangements or currency fluctuation' just to spit us in this 'other market they'll just sell our share to'.



Yes but you're forgetting that for decades they have been competing with an unfair advantage and all we're asking is them to compete like everybody else.

The top 2 best selling cars in the UK are made by Ford, and American company. What does that tell you? That we can strike agreements so good with countries on our own that you can overcome the tariff free advantages we are obliged to give to others.



I have a degree from Oxford, but nice try

Is there really a distinction between 'control' and 'reduce'. I would suggest a lot of leavers are taking the view that immigration should be reduced and Brexit will lead to that. It is not a straw man argument to counter that belief directly and claim that immigration will not reduce or be 'controlled' by Brexit.

ad hominem hands up to that one!

Actually not everyone does have a degree. Like IDS and Farage for instance but it is not the be all and end all to have a degree.

Jesus I am not suggesting that a market the size and attractiveness of the UK to German car makers exists right now. However if trading conditions are altered then a different market might become more attractive and if demand in the UK was reduced then moving sales to a different market is a possible response.

The trade deal with the EU will be subject to a decision by all member states so what Germany wants will not dictate the outcome. They may be wringing their hands in desperation to get a trade deal with the UK but its not fully in their control.

What unfair advantage?

How does Ford sales prove that at all? I was under the impression most Ford cars sold in the UK were manufactured within the EU. I am not even sure we have a bilateral trade treaty with the USA at this time and the relationship is governed by the Treaty situation between the USA and EU but I stand to be corrected on that fact.

 

[Danthus]

Seems rather an own goal people don't want to be part of Europe but in the last few decades have bought loads of German and French made cars,and will probably still do so.

Perhaps if more people bought cars made over here,we would have more car plants still in the UK.

lul wut!?

 

[bayo000]

Not sure what is hard to understand there. Unless you're suggesting that people made a good choice of buying better quality foreign cars.

 

[BaronVonDuncs]

My interest lies in Britain, and making it Great again. If you want to get American about it, be my guest. I'm English.

What changes do you want?

Having lived in Belfast for 10 years I am tetchy about those who seemingly discount Northern Ireland by not using the correct term of the United Kingdom.

I am not sure that is being American about it (although like Boris I am a dual national and also American!)

The UK is not going to be a 'Great' power again that day is long passed. We are a middle ranking power with a history that tends to magnify our significance but ultimately we are not going to be up there with the USA or China no matter what.

My list of changes would be extensive so I won't get into a long shopping list at this time.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

lul wut!?

People keep saying the EU is destroying UK jobs and industries and taking our monies,yet then instead of supporting home grown companies with local factories like some of own car companies we had in the past,kept buying German and French cars which meant those companies survived and our own ones went down the pan.

In countries like France there is a much stronger urge to support local companies we don't have here and yet in the same vein we want to leave the EU.

Maybe instead of a simple tick on a ballot box people need to be conscious of how they spend their own income too.

 

[blun]

I thought the general userbase of OCUK forums would be in favour of Remain, given they are the sort of people that generally do huge amounts of research before making important decisions.

Turns out that's wrong and the nonsense being spouted by the leave campaign is being believed

 

[Mulder]

I couldn't be bothered to be honest as it seemed pointless. You made claims about the separation of powers and then when the UK system was critiqued on that basis you jumped to the question of direct election instead. I just don't see the point in discussing it if you can't even manage to stick to your own discussion points.

Your issues around the ECHR and HRA verged on Daily Fail nonsense as well so again just couldn't be bothered to bang my head against that wall.

My grammar may sometimes be weak but that is having a 70's comprehensive education for you. Typing too quickly with two fingers probably doesn't help either. I will try harder.

You have no interest in having a proper debate, I'll let our fellow forum goers make their own minds up based on my latest response to you here.

Nice try trying to discredit my posts with a comparison to the Daily Mail (twice) though.

 

[Danthus]

People keep saying the EU is destroying UK jobs and industries and taking our monies,yet then instead of supporting home grown companies with local factories like some of own car companies we had in the past,kept buying German and French cars which meant those companies survived and our own ones went down the pan.

In countries like France there is a much stronger urge to support local companies we don't have here and yet in the same vein we want to leave the EU.

Maybe instead of a simple tick on a ballot box people need to be conscious of how they spend their own income too.

That is far too simplistic.

 

[davewhite04]

http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06077.pdf

Page 13. EU and non-EU immigration is much the same, and the overall number increase isn't that much in terms of the overall population.

If:

• Immigrants spoke fluent English (so they weren't as "noticeable")
• They didn't end up stuffed into rented accommodation during a housing crisis (.gov.uk's fault)
• Companies didn't import cheap labour in bulk, negatively impacting specific areas & further affecting rent & house prices. I believe this is mainly .gov.uk's fault, but happy to be corrected on that assumption from someone with knowledge of employment law, housing laws, council abilities etc. Sports Direct example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35604776

... then I don't think people would actually care about immigration. Nobody seems to really care about the equal number of non-EU immigrants. As it is, though, nationalism is gaining in many EU countries, and could potentially [hasten?] the downfall of the EU and result in some very unfortunate consequences.

Bottom line. If we have control of immigration, and a point(we have a million kids who would jump at the chance to do unskilled labour, for a decent wage packet, which would lead to a better job, worked for me) based system, and just let in those we need. A crackdown on phoney weddings is required too, and weddings of convenience needs looked at. We cannot house more people, Brits cannot get council houses and end up with their parents or on the street for goodness sake. We need to do a check, catch our breath, find out how many people actually live here, and make sure we have enough houses. Take back control.

 

[Sencha]

I thought the general userbase of OCUK forums would be in favour of Remain, given they are the sort of people that generally do huge amounts of research before making important decisions.

Turns out that's wrong and the nonsense being spouted by the leave campaign is being believed

Lol no. Ocuk = daily mail tech forum

 

[estebanrey]

Is there really a distinction between 'control' and 'reduce'. I would suggest a lot of leavers are taking the view that immigration should be reduced and Brexit will lead to that. It is not a straw man argument to counter that belief directly and claim that immigration will not reduce or be 'controlled' by Brexit.

But my point was that Remainers are defeating the argument that immigration will stop completely...

Example 3:58....

"If we leave the EU and immigration is dramatically stopped..."

That is a strawman, no one is claiming immigration will go to 0.

As for the claim it will reduce immigration it almost certainly will. 80% of net EU migration into Europe would stop overnight if those people had to adhere to the same conditions of entry as non-EU citizens.

Is there a reasonable possibility we'll end up signing a free movement deal anyway in order to gain free access to the single market? Yes. Is there a reasonable possibility the size of the UK's economy will get us a deal that has a more controlled version. Yes as well.

Jesus I am not suggesting that a market the size and attractiveness of the UK to German car makers exists right now.

Well you kinda did by suggesting if they lost access to our market they'd find someone else to fill the gap, as if it was no biggie or that much disruption.

However if trading conditions are altered then a different market might become more attractive and if demand in the UK was reduced then moving sales to a different market is a possible response.

Trading conditions would have to become extremely bad for you to give up on your current biggest market in favour of looking elsewhere.

The trade deal with the EU will be subject to a decision by all member states so what Germany wants will not dictate the outcome. They may be wringing their hands in desperation to get a trade deal with the UK but its not fully in their control.

In theory yes. However we also have French farmers whose biggest market is at threat. With both of them needing a good deal you can pretty much ignore the smaller states' opinion.

What unfair advantage?

BMW can currently trade freely in the UK with no tariffs or import limits. Ford, Honda, Nissan etc can only trade by the rules set by their respective governments.

That gives them an advantage over non-EU car manufacturers doesn't it? If it doesn't then what is the point of being in the single market at all?

How does Ford sales prove that at all?

Because you are putting forward the implication that unless you're in a free trade area within another foreign car manufacturer then somehow it would put massive trade barriers up that would impact your ability to trade. The fact the best selling car in the UK is American owned shows that isn't the case.

If EU advatages were that great, BMW, Mercedes and Citroen would be noticeably ahead in terms of sales than the likes of Ford or Honda...but they're not.

I was under the impression most Ford cars sold in the UK were manufactured within the EU.

Irrelevant, all Minis are build in the UK but you still think BMW will stop selling them to us if we pull out of the EU.

 

[izzop]

I thought the general userbase of OCUK forums would be in favour of Remain, given they are the sort of people that generally do huge amounts of research before making important decisions.

Turns out that's wrong and the nonsense being spouted by the leave campaign is being believed

Quality!

Maybe it's because of the "given they are the sort of people that generally do huge amounts of research before making important decisions." that some of us can see the EU for what it is and for what it will evolve into.

To be fair both sides have spouted some real nonsense, and as voting day gets ever closer the Remain side are stepping up the nonsense.

 

[davewhite04]

Seems rather an own goal people don't want to be part of Europe but in the last few decades have bought loads of German and French made cars,and will probably still do so.

Perhaps if more people bought cars made over here,we would have more car plants still in the UK.

We do not want to stop trade with European countries, and I'm 100% sure they don't want to stop trade with us. We import a helluva lot more than we export.

I do wish companies like TVR went mainstream, but they would need help from the establishment. I'd buy one no problem, if it offered a practical drive worth the price.

 

[Arazi]

Trust me, BMW would lose billions if Britain stopped trade.

If? It is never going to happen, do you really think either party are actually going to say sorry, we are not trading with you?

And that goes for pretty much all the other huge companies we currently trade with.

Carry on as pretty much normal if we leave the EU.

 

[davewhite04]

I thought the general userbase of OCUK forums would be in favour of Remain, given they are the sort of people that generally do huge amounts of research before making important decisions.

Turns out that's wrong and the nonsense being spouted by the leave campaign is being believed

It doesn't require much research, depending on how much common sense you have. Video games, PC Hardware, in particular are rife for scrutiny, and rightly so.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

That is far too simplistic.

No it isn't - plenty of countries support their own industries and companies in a more public sense then we do. We can't moan about the EU destroying them,when Joe and Jane public vote with their wallet and use their pounds to support jobs in other countries for things that can be made here still.

You want to help create more jobs in this country -support more local companies and industries. If we don't and vote with our wallets,why should anybody else care?? No point voting for a Brexit and then continuing to just not bother supporting local firms. Sure you might pay more,but in the end we are all in this together.

But we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.