Manchester Bombing *** Please remain respectful and refrain from antagonising posts ***

[Amp34]

The measures that people want (and probably will) be implemented will become more Draconian as long as the perception is there that not enough is being done as the attacks inevitably rise. Complaining about Prevent or complaining about foreign policy isn't winning friends or influencing people. The only way to win is to report these people even if it means family members or friends. There's no other solution.

You were advocating detaining indefinitely without charge, not reporting people. Think you're confusing what i replied to there.

 

[Amp34]

What do you think the government do with peoppe that they cannot work out where they come from?

 

[Fishbait]

America sold us up the river :/
were on our own now lads!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40038630

Don't know why anyone's surprised about this.
When Trump sits about & tells the Russians sensitive information & it is out in public, not surprised it's also happened with this too.

 

[Above&Beyond]

I think you missed post #1797. Apparently he was reported. It didn't solve anything.

In fact it can be argued that reporting it just makes it worse because then they get access to the prison ISIS manuals which teaches them to "take up arms against their enemies".


The only way to win this is to send these people to me, or anyone else who can provide some sort psychological intervention/behavioural therapy, and convince them that killing innocent people will send them to eternal hell. Not some prison which teaches them to "take up arms against their enemies".

A 5 year old report obviously wasn't strenuous enough. He didn't just wake up an extremist, it'll have been a gradual process day on day. That is noticeable and can be prevented or intervened with by those who are closest to him or flagged up by 'community leaders' who are supposedly attuned to this.

I don't doubt this man had preachings of eternal hellfire and damnation drilled into him from a young age, but your narrative is weaker than 72 virgins and eternal Paradise through martyrdom. Especially to what appears to be a complete loser in life like most of these jihadis.

 

[titaniumx3]

You say root cause is foreign policy and then say in the same breath you are not making excuses? What is that if not an excuse? What foreign policy measure legitimises a suicide bombing of a pop concert that targets 8 year old girls? I'm all ears.

Again, you are applying schoolboy logic here. You seem to think these events are all occuring in close succession and directly the result of our foreign policy. What you are seeing in these most recent attacks are the end/fringe outcomes of something that has been happening for a long time and spiralling out of control, with our government and military knee deep in it. Your view of what is happening over there is probably massively sanitised by western propoganda. Also your kneejerk reaction of attempting to accuse me of making 'excuses' by pointing out a legitimate root cause of this situation is just further proof that you have a very naive view of the whole situation.

 

[Above&Beyond]

You were advocating detaining indefinitely without charge, not reporting people. Think you're confusing what i replied to there.

It's you that seems to be peddling this myth that its either all or nothing. There are far more shades of grey in between collecting more evidence and locking people up indefinitely.

I can see that Prevent is not a palatable strategy to you. That's your prerogative, but if the perception is not enough is being achieved at a community level then it'll only breed more robust laws and strategies.

 

[Above&Beyond]

Again, you are applying schoolboy logic here. You seem to think these events are all occuring in close succession and directly the result of our foreign policy. What you are seeing in these most recent attacks are the end/fringe outcomes of something that has been happening for a long time and spiralling out of control, with our government and military knee deep in it. Your view of what is happening over there is probably massively sanitised by western propoganda. Also your kneejerk reaction of attempting to accuse me of making 'excuses' by pointing out a legitimate root cause of this situation is just further proof that you have a very naive view of the whole situation.

UK foreign policy should not a ready made excuse to be wheeled out when an atrocity like this happens. You even mention 'the blame game' and without a hint of irony proceed to blame UK foreign policy. It's logic like that which is unsettling and warped. Is there any attack you can't pin on UK foreign policy then?

Sitting around the negotiating table with ISIS and agreeing to the destruction of western Judeo-Christian civilization isn't an option. Not bombing ISIS isn't an option. UK foreign policy should not be a hook to hang terrorist atrocities on.

 

[albert]

So we have 3000 radical extremists living amongst us as certain people can leave the UK, go and fight for ISIS and then return to the UK with nothing said. Why?

Also, the politicians now have 100's of troops protecting them whilst telling the rest of the us to keep calm, stay united and carry on. Who is protecting me who lives up North?

 

[Amp34]

It's you that seems to be peddling this myth that its either all or nothing. There are far more shades of grey in between collecting more evidence and locking people up indefinitely.

I can see that Prevent is not a palatable strategy to you. That's your prerogative, but if the perception is not enough is being achieved at a community level then it'll only breed more robust laws and strategies.

Sorry but what are you on about?

I'm not the one suggesting locking people up (and possibly their families) indefinitely. That's the others advocating it - go look back in this thread.

Also where have I said Prevent is not a palatable strategy?

I think you need to go and read past posts and understand what people are actually talking about. Your last few posts don't make any sense.

That said admittedly Prevent is seen with suspicion by many in those communities as its seem a spying on them, and being run by people that don't understand the communities they serve. As an example - https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.the...radicalisation-prevent-strategy-a-toxic-brand

To get round these issues many communities have set up their own schemes to help alert community members and police to potential troublesome people.

Your starting premise appears to be that Muslim communities don't want to deal with the issue. That's just not correct.

As has already been pointed out the police/security services had been warned about this particular guy form people within his community. The man arrested a few weeks ago with knives was also caught because police were alerted by his family (I believe).

Edit: yes, it was his family https://www.google.ca/amp/www.teleg...e-westminster-arrest-man-backpack-knives/amp/

It is understood that the suspect’s family had become concerned about his behaviour and reported him to the authorities several weeks ago. Investigators believe he was about to launch an attack.

 

[Tefal]

What do you think the government do with peoppe that they cannot work out where they come from?

Well your link says they dump them on the street in he UK indefinite leave to remain but no right to work. (So basically we make a criminal)

The other option is indefinite detention although the longest that's been done is 41 months.

Which a judge signed off on.

No it's not. Any rescued person would subsequently have to claim asylum in the UK and then wait to be assessed. Once assessed they would be either be told to leave/deported or they would be classed as a refugee and allowed to stay as a refugee. After those 5 years, of things were still unsafe to go home they may be given indefinite right to remain (and I presume eventually citizenship?).

http://www.asylumaid.org.uk/the-asylum-process-made-simple/

You really have to want to come to the UK though as the UK has some of the lowest rates of asylum claims approved in Europe, way below the EU average.

Well obviously, we get far more. Iirc more than 15 other EU countries combined. We get 25k + a year Portugal etc gets about 1-2k.

Also we refuse a lot of claims but we hardly deport anyone

 

[Amp34]

Well your link says they dump them on the street in he UK indefinite leave to remain but no right to work. (So basically we make a criminal)

The other option is indefinite detention although the longest that's been done is 41 months.

Which a judge signed off on.

So not citizenship or proper right to remain?

It's not ideal, but what else can you do?

Well obviously, we get far more. Iirc more than 15 other EU countries combined. We get 25k + a year Portugal etc gets about 1-2k.

Also we refuse a lot of claims but we hardly deport anyone

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...(thousands_of_first_time_applicants)_YB17.png

Well considering Portugal has a much smaller population and economy it seems only right we get more refugees and asylum seekers. Compared to similar/equivalent countries we certainly don't compare.

That doesn't negate the fact we are one of the harshest in asylum applications either.

I also don't think many will argue against deporting more asylum seekers with failed applications and appeals.

 

[Tefal]

Well the Dublin agreement means we should have 0 claims as they are meant to be processed in the first European country.

 

[neil_g]

Also, the politicians now have 100's of troops protecting them whilst telling the rest of the us to keep calm, stay united and carry on. Who is protecting me who lives up North?

Rightly so. I'd imagine there would be contingency but think of the disruption a coordinated attack on multiple high level MP would cause.

Anyway I thought you Northern lot were supposed to be hard. All those years of calling southerners soft..

 

[Chris Wilson]

Not that anyone buys this nonsense (surely?!) but I live within 10 minutes of all of these areas and I can categorically say this is total ****. Fallowfield is a typical student area, and has been for as long as I've been coming to Manchester, while Cheadle, Gatley and Didsbury remain among the more affluent Manchester suburbs. You just make stuff up to suit your agenda.

You must be an estate agent's dream, a chap who can't recognise a ****hole area even when living near it I lived for over 40 years in Gatley, and it's now become a dump.

 

[stewski]

UK foreign policy should not a ready made excuse to be wheeled out when an atrocity like this happens. You even mention 'the blame game' and without a hint of irony proceed to blame UK foreign policy. It's logic like that which is unsettling and warped. Is there any attack you can't pin on UK foreign policy then?

Sitting around the negotiating table with ISIS and agreeing to the destruction of western Judeo-Christian civilization isn't an option. Not bombing ISIS isn't an option. UK foreign policy should not be a hook to hang terrorist atrocities on.

I guess when children die or are killed by our government (and others) in the 10's to 100,000's in places like Iraq, I'd find it difficult to write what you have above, perhaps it's because one of the earliest images of that war I saw, was of a father holding a dead 8 year old with missing limbs!

But please spout off about the Importance of Judo/Christian "Civilisation" that seemingly decide these wars, just remember that a million UK citizens marched on parliament to protest just one of them!

For the record, in my eyes, no war or action by government(s) or religion, is likely ever to be a reasonable justification for attacking children at a concert, or carpet bombing a region full of them for that matter!

 

[titaniumx3]

UK foreign policy should not a ready made excuse to be wheeled out when an atrocity like this happens. You even mention 'the blame game' and without a hint of irony proceed to blame UK foreign policy. It's logic like that which is unsettling and warped. Is there any attack you can't pin on UK foreign policy then?

Sitting around the negotiating table with ISIS and agreeing to the destruction of western Judeo-Christian civilization isn't an option. Not bombing ISIS isn't an option. UK foreign policy should not be a hook to hang terrorist atrocities on.

Great, you now you are just putting words into my mouth. When did I say Isis should not be exterminated? Also I do not care about who is to blame, this is simply something you are bringing up continuously. It is simply a matter of fact that Isis was created from the chaos and power vacuum left behind after the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. There is no blaming going on. I'm just pointing out the root cause. Killing innocents like what has happened in the UK cannot under any circumstance be legitimised, but that doesn't mean you can't point out how it came about in the first place.

 

[scorza]

Channel 4 news. Wow, what a bunch of ******* insensitive idiots. You just know that there was much hand-wringing, but I guess they are too right-on to ask that dumb **** in the Burqa to move.

In case anyone missed it, as I did first time around, the o in love is a hand grenade, the v looks like a knife and the e some sort of assault rifle. Can't tell what the l is.

 

[darkgen]

*all round sighs*

 

[glenimp617]

a knuckle duster

 

[RavenXXX2]

Dumbass Trump Gov leaking classified evidence to the US media, WTF.