Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

[VincentHanna]

If he wasn't offered it's damning on the Government, not Corbyn.

Cameron had no issue sharing intelligence briefings with him

 

[Hagar]

In his statement to the 15-member council, Mr Nebenzia questioned why Russia would eliminate someone using a "dangerous and highly public" method.

He contrasted the use of a chemical with the "hundreds of clever ways of killing someone" shown in British series Midsomer Murders.

The thought of channeling Midsomer Murders as a guide to 'clever' ways of killing someone is faintly amusing. Has someone been tasked to watch all British television to come up with material devised to appeal to the British public and thought that this reference would do the trick? Perhaps MM watching will become basic tradecraft for aspiring Russian assassins?

 

[jpaul]

If he wasn't offered it's damning on the Government, not Corbyn.

I had meant corbyn needs to ask himself openly why he is not trusted by the civil service/government - fitness to be a PM , yes, government should explain too.
If he refused it, because it would impair his ability to critique govenment, i think electorate would punish him for lack of pragmatism on such an important issue (I would anyway)
He could maybe make political capital in the former case, but has not done so ?

(they both quoted alice in wonderland too .. a bit more high brow?)
edit could the english diplomat have quoted a russian author ?

After accusing Britain of making allegations against Russia without a proper investigation, he stressed the part where the Queen dismisses the King's suggestion for the jury to give its verdict by declaring: "Sentence first, verdict afterwards", and Alice calling it: "Stuff and Nonsense."

British Representative Karen Pierce hit back at Nebenzia quoting the Queen in the same novel to ridicule his defence.

"There is another very good quote from 'Alice in Wonderland' which is: 'Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast'," Pierce said.

 

[Firestar_3x]

That'll go down well with Overclockers, care to hazard a guess what percentage of goods they sell are of Chinese origin? I suspect the average young British technology lover has more Chinese made goods about their person and bedroom than a Chinese person of similar age....

Indeed they will, limited reason why we can't start developing manufacturing power for such goods in other developing country's over the next few decades and reduce our reliance on China.

 

[StriderX]

Indeed they will, limited reason why we can't start developing manufacturing power for such goods in other developing country's over the next few decades and reduce our reliance on China.

Limited... as in too late to the African party, China is already there and it won't be sharing it with us.

Geopolitics is ultimately time-limited, and we ran out 10 years ago.

 

[h4rm0ny]

I'm curious, I have a question for some of you, If UK Gov hadnt come out all guns blazing blaming Russia from the start and had quietly investigated it before placing blame, what would you have thought?

For me it would actually have shifted suspicion off the UK somewhat. Multiple countries can produce these agents as a matter of record (and heinously denied by Dowie ), the world of espionage is weird and full of double-crosses - frankly, caution and uncertainty are what you would expect from an honest investigation. The fact that senior UK officials were all ready to leap ahead with assertions of guilt, diplomatic expulsions and use it to call for sanction renewals and blocking of Nordstream 2 makes me more suspicious of the UK than I would be otherwise. It doesn't need to be a false flag - it could be genuine and people like Boris Johnson opportunistically pouncing on it with glee before they should. That's also a very plausible scenario. But either way, it harms the UK's case in my eyes.

I dont think we get much gas from Russia, Europe does though.

Not much. We have done, though. Russia was kind enough to sell us some gas when we had a critical shortage at the end of last year. It wasn't widely acknowledged as being from Russia as it was done through a consortium, but Gazprom was part of it and in practical terms it was a ship full of oil from Russia to the UK. Nordstream 2 is set to increase capacity to Europe by around 55bn m³ /year when it goes online, unless the USA can block it. We could get more from Russia ourselves but the UK government would never do that to America.

Nonsense, complete and total nonsense.

There are only a handful of countries on the planet with the ability to make it, it's probably on par with nuclear weapons.

For reference, this is a 2009 quote on the subject from the scientist who launched a book containing the formulas for some Novichoks:

I think it's rather more than a handful. According to Porton Down it would even be possible, though unlikely, for a non-state actor to create it. And if so, then I'd say a lot of states have the resources to do so by extension. I doubt many have or would, but that's different to could. Nuclear weapons have a couple of major differences:

• They require actual restricted materials like Uranium. Precursors for novichok are trivial to acquire undetected.
• You cannot test nuclear weapons without being spotted. Nerve agents are easy to test ("Bring me bunnies!")

I agree - it's not trivial. But unlike nuclear weapons you cannot know that other nations haven't made some and there's no intrinsic barrier to doing so.

 

[ubersonic]

I think it's rather more than a handful.

It's highly unlikely, to put it in perspective, North Korea have basic nuclear weapons, but they do not have the ability to create a Novichok. You need a state of the art chemical weapons laboratory and trained/experienced engineers and it takes years of work. I.E Iran claim to have synthesized some unviable Novichok samples a couple of years ago, but they would never be capable of creating the real stuff.

 

[h4rm0ny]

It's highly unlikely, to put it in perspective, North Korea have basic nuclear weapons, but they do not have the ability to create a Novichok. You need a state of the art chemical weapons laboratory and trained/experienced engineers and it takes years of work. I.E Iran claim to have synthesized some unviable Novichok samples a couple of years ago, but they would never be capable of creating the real stuff.

Novichok agents have been around for forty years. You need "years of work"? Fine - you got it. I repeat, if Porton Down wont rule out that a non-state actor could do this, then far more than a handful of states could produce this. Have they? Unlikely. Could they - yes. One of the explicit design goals of Novichok was even to circumvent the Chemical Weapons Conventions list of controlled precursors, even!

Who is the source of your quote, by the way. You just say "the scientist".

EDIT: And as to your bit about "Iran claims", the five Novichok variants Iran produced were added to the OPCW database of chemical weapons so you can drop your attempt to diminish that as evidence other countries have produced this stuff or can.

 

[ubersonic]

Who is the source of your quote, by the way. You just say "the scientist".

It's been mentioned before but it's Dr. Vil Mirzayanov, the guy who wrote the book on Amazon that revealed Novichoks to the world including their formulas (hence why he was explaining it was safe for him to do so as it's not like a non-state or minor state actor could realistically make any).

 

[ubersonic]

EDIT: And as to your bit about "Iran claims", the five Novichok variants Iran produced were added to the OPCW database of chemical weapons so you can drop your attempt to diminish that as evidence other countries have produced this stuff or can.

You misunderstood, I wasn't saying Iran hadn't synthesized any, they did hence the OPCW adding the signature of the database, my point was that Iran (and similar countries) completely lack the ability to create stable/viable Novichoks that could actually be used as a weapon.

 

[dowie]

For me it would actually have shifted suspicion off the UK somewhat. Multiple countries can produce these agents as a matter of record (and heinously denied by Dowie )

Probably better to stick with what people have actually posted.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Probably better to stick with what people have actually posted.

But you do. Every time you refuse to answer what technical or scientific barriers make this one variant special, you concede there aren't any. Which leaves you with the only reason you have for thinking nobody but Russia could make this is Boris Johnson and May's word.

 

[h4rm0ny]

It's been mentioned before but it's Dr. Vil Mirzayanov, the guy who wrote the book on Amazon that revealed Novichoks to the world including their formulas (hence why he was explaining it was safe for him to do so as it's not like a non-state or minor state actor could realistically make any).

You misunderstood, I wasn't saying Iran hadn't synthesized any, they did hence the OPCW adding the signature of the database, my point was that Iran (and similar countries) completely lack the ability to create stable/viable Novichoks that could actually be used as a weapon.

Well he's right that it's unlikely a non-state actor couldn't make these. But I don't accept that only a handful of states could make them. I also don't see the impossible leap that stops Iran or many other states capable of making these or which makes Iran capable of making these yet "completely lack the ability" to make ones usable as a weapon. Why do you suppose Iran's are so unstable or unviable?

Creating these requires resources and expertise. Even small states have the resources - the greater issue is whether they're willing to break international treaties in trying to secretly do so. And as to expertise, I've already said: you say it "takes years" to make these. Try the four decades since they were discovered!

 

[dowie]

But you do. Every time you refuse to answer what technical or scientific barriers make this one variant special, you concede there aren't any. Which leaves you with the only reason you have for thinking nobody but Russia could make this is Boris Johnson and May's word.

again, try to stick with what people have actually posted...

you're just projecting again and then basing an argument on your own projections, which is rather flawed. This is perhaps how you end up with the sort of joined up thinking that has got you believing in rather improbable conspiracies in the first place

it isn't hard to actually stick with what people have posted, there is even a quote facility provided for you

 

[h4rm0ny]

again, try to stick with what people have actually posted...

you're just projecting again and then basing an argument on your own projections, which is rather flawed. This is perhaps how you end up with the sort of joined up thinking that has got you believing in rather improbable conspiracies in the first place

it isn't hard to actually stick with what people have posted, there is even a quote facility provided for you

Well then let's just do the exchange again. I said that other countries have produced Novichok agents and this proves that it's not only Russia that could have made this. You disagreed. Do you now agree with my statement? Surely you're at least willing to answer yes or no to that?

 

[h4rm0ny]

Earlier I said that it was to Russia's advantage that Skirpal was poisoned in so far as it acted as a discouragement to other traitors. I now think that was wrong. Having learned more about the politics of prisoner exchanges, I think it's probably less in Russia's interests to violate up the norms prisoner exchanges. Killing those exchanged post-fact accomplishes little and in fact has the long-term effect of making exchanges less likely.

I've also suggested that Porton Down could be a source of the nerve agent. Oddly enough, the recent interview with a Porton Down official has made me consider this less likely. Whilst it's still possible, I would expect if Porton Down officials were complicit with the leaking of nerve agents, they would also be complicit in supporting the government in their story. Rather than embarrass it as they have done. That suggests to me professional integrity and lack of complicity by Porton Down. It's still possible, but it seems less likely to me. As it's a zero sum game, that increases the chance of it being Russia (and if it is, I'd say this is a very botched job) or being another country sharing opposition to Russia.

 

[dowie]

Well then let's just do the exchange again. I said that other countries have produced Novichok agents and this proves that it's not only Russia that could have made this. You disagreed. Do you now agree with my statement? Surely you're at least willing to answer yes or no to that?

Well firstly the disagreement was with your assertion re: Iran and then leaping from that to declaring that the UK govt has therefore lied. It was a flawed argument for the reasons already posted a few times. you then got hung up on a question rather irrelevant to that argument.

Secondly we don't know what the specific agent is nor do we know(all of) the reasons for blaming Russia.

I've not denied that other countries could produce a Novichok agent it doesn't prove that not only Russia could make this though (I've not made a claim either way there), but you can't necessarily make big leaps from some vague claim about Iran. Producing something vs producing something that can be delivered as a weapon in this manner vs producing the (currently unknown to us) substance used in this attack, and indeed whatever other known and unknown information has been used to conclude that the plausible explanations for this attack were it was Russia or Russia lost control of it's Novichok stock.

 

[VincentHanna]

Maybe that phone call wasn't total B/S?

Russian former spy Sergei Skripal is no longer in a critical condition after being poisoned by a nerve agent, doctors have said.

Staff at Salisbury District Hospital said Mr Skripal is responding well to treatment and "improving rapidly".

Mr Skripal, 66, and his daughter Yulia, 33, have been in hospital for more than a month after being found unconscious on a bench in Salisbury.

They had been poisoned with a toxic nerve agent called Novichok.

The UK government claims Russia is behind the attack but Moscow has denied all involvement, calling the accusations "horrific and unsubstantiated".

Dr Christine Blanshard, medical director at Salisbury District Hospital said: "Last Thursday, I informed you that Yulia Skripal's condition had improved to stable.

"As Yulia herself says, her strength is growing daily and she can look forward to the day when she is well enough to leave the hospital.

"Any speculation on when that date will be is just that - speculation.

"In the meantime, Yulia has asked for privacy while she continues to get better - something I'd like to urge the media to respect.

"I also want to update you on the condition of her father, Sergei Skripal. He is responding well to treatment, improving rapidly and is no longer in a critical condition."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43671958

 

[merlin]

What "treatment" is it they've had I wonder, given what they've been exposed to?

 

[jpaul]

Maybe that phone call wasn't total B/S?

thank you for breaking the circle,

Well then let's just do the exchange again

was beginning to feel like extras in groundhog day, or watching fish in the bowl