Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

dowie said:
Well firstly the disagreement was with your assertion re: Iran and then leaping from that to declaring that the UK govt has therefore lied.
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Boris Johnson and May said that ONLY Russia could have produced this nerve agent. As other countries have demonstrated they're capable I asked you what technical or scientific barrier prevented the production of this one, then. If there isn't any - and you endlessly refuse to answer this simple question - then I say it's possible other countries have. You can say "irrelevant" and "false premise" all day long but you still wont answer this one, very basic question. And you wont answer it because if you do then the only arguments you're left with depend on taking Boris Johnson's word for it. (Who incidentally has now been shown to be lying the other day, which is unfortunate for your position).
 
merlin said:
What "treatment" is it they've had I wonder, given what they've been exposed to?
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I think they just mean general care, respirators and such. Porton Down said they have no specific antidote and I'm inclined to believe them. I don't think the word "treatment" indicates anything nefarious is going on.
 
h4rm0ny said:
Boris Johnson and May said that ONLY Russia could have produced this nerve agent. As other countries have demonstrated they're capable I asked you what technical or scientific barrier prevented the production of this one, then. If there isn't any - and you endlessly refuse to answer this simple question - then I say it's possible other countries have.
You can say "irrelevant" and "false premise" all day long but you still wont answer this one, very basic question. And you wont answer it because if you do then the only arguments you're left with depend on taking Boris Johnson's word for it. (Who incidentally has now been shown to be lying the other day, which is unfortunate for your position).
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Hang on minute what exactly is the substance you're asking to produce? If you don't know that then how can you know what technical barriers there are?

Regardless of that why is the answer to that fundamentally important? Are you still assuming that the accusation towards Russia is solely dependent on the question of a technical barrier to producing the nerve agent as that doesn't appear to be the case at all.

It is again a completely flawed premise/set up and a question that (currently) can't be answered.

I think you might have straw manned May too with your usual trait of paraphrasing what you think someone has said vs what they actually said.
 
Oh dear oh dear. Tell me it isn't true. Yulia informing the world through her cousin that her dad is fine whilst the BBC etc still trotted out "critical but stable" for 24 hours beyond that. Medical authorities beaten to it by the daughter. Very slow to confirm. Why? Fate of a cat and guinea pigs considered national security for over 30 days as well. Questions about how they could die of malnourishment and thirst. And why they were destroyed (evidence) not only put down if they didn't test positive for novichok. This just gets better and better.
 
I expect that they will have a pretty good chemical signature of the agent(s) from the sampling taken and the search will be on for correlation with the OPCW. Until they report, all else is speculation.

Reluctance to name Russia by the scientists at Porton Down will be partly due to not prestating or upstaging any investigation and the outside chance that this is misplaced materials.

Porton Down is MOD and any reporting should be through the Government.
 
VincentHanna said:
He was released, but the implication was his life would never be the same.
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Wikipedia says the following about a scientist working on the chemicals development who was accidentally exposed.

The agent caused permanent harm, with effects that included "chronic weakness in his arms, a toxic hepatitis that gave rise to cirrhosis of the liver, epilepsy, spells of severe depression, and an inability to read or concentrate that left him totally disabled and unable to work." He never recovered and died in July 1992 after five years of deteriorating health.
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Now I have no information about what the expected outcome is for the policeman or the Russians but the potential for life changing effects seems clear.
 
h4rm0ny said:
I think they just mean general care, respirators and such. Porton Down said they have no specific antidote and I'm inclined to believe them. I don't think the word "treatment" indicates anything nefarious is going on.
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I'm not suggesting they've not been exposed to the nerve agent - I'm just wondering if there is some form of established treatment/antidote after all? Or maybe they just didn't get exposed to enough of the stuff?
 
h4rm0ny said:
Well he's right that it's unlikely a non-state actor couldn't make these. But I don't accept that only a handful of states could make them.
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Why not? It's literally the highly skilled/experienced Russian chemical weapons scientist who revealed Novichoks to the west and published the formula explaining why the formula alone isn't harmful because only a select few developed countries would ever be able to make them due to the expertise/resources/experience required.


h4rm0ny said:
I also don't see the impossible leap that stops Iran or many other states capable of making these or which makes Iran capable of making these yet "completely lack the ability" to make ones usable as a weapon.
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Okay, quick analogy: I can go into my kitchen, put the kettle on the hob (yes I still use gas, it's cheaper than electric) and boil water, that doesn't mean I'm competent/qualified to design and construct my own steam train in my shed.

Synthesizing the Novichok formula is one thing but creating a Novichok agent that is stable and effective is a completely different kettle of fish, Iran aren't even remotely close to having the level of expertise/resources/experience required for that.


h4rm0ny said:
Why do you suppose Iran's are so unstable or unviable?
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Because I had an interest in the subject before March so I've read things on it other than the surge of clickbait/Twitter/Facebook articles that have sprung up on it, back When Iran first announced they had synthesized the formula I read a number of articles on it which were quite interesting so I had a clear picture of events before the fake news crew started throwing their shade. You see all the clickbait articles that explain "ermahgerd Iran made Novichoks too, anyone can do it!" are simple that, clickbait, they completely misrepresent what Iran did, they never made a viable agent, they never even attempted too, they were merely trying to create the signature to add to the database which (unlike a weaponised agent) did not require it to be stable or effective, just to exist for a fraction of a second in some concentration so it's fingerprint as it were could be recorded.
 
[edit : are we there yet ]

If Porton Down had previously produced an antidote , then surreptitioulsy this fact has been drawn out - we do not know exactly how fast the antidote might have worked though.
[ was there evidence that 'treatment' for VX would not also be relevant
Antidotes
Administration of antidotes is a critical step in managing a nerve agent victim; however, this may be difficult to achieve in the Hot Zone, because the antidotes may not be readily available, and procedures or policies for their administration while in the Hot Zone may be lacking. If the military Mark I kits containing autoinjectors are available, they provide the best way to administer the antidotes. One autoinjector automatically delivers 2 mg atropine and the other automatically delivers 600 mg 2-PAM Cl. Otherwise, administer antidotes as described in Table 3.
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]
 
Moses said:
This is very good. Explains about some science/why they may both recover/things which could have been done to lessen the effects/etc... and also that they’re not as lethal as people assume...

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-a...sting-why-didn-t-the-skripals-die-on-the-spot

No idea if it’s been posted up until now. Haven’t read all of this garbage thread, if I’m honest.
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well hopefully that satisfies one of the lines of approach of the conspiracy theorists, also amusing to see him comment on the use of the term "military grade" nerve agent too.

A few people have already mentioned the use of the military style epipens/atropine in relation to nerve agents and the obvious possibility of a lower dose (especially in relation to the police officer), but subjects like this will inevitably attract conspiracies

anyway thanks for posting the article, I don't believe it has been posted in the thread until now
 
Danny75 said:
Fate of a cat and guinea pigs considered national security for over 30 days as well. Questions about how they could die of malnourishment and thirst. And why they were destroyed (evidence) not only put down if they didn't test positive for novichok. This just gets better and better.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ve-agent-attack-salisbury-house-a8291571.html

Concerns over the welfare of Mr Skripal’s pets were raised this week by Moscow.

“Where are the animals, what state are they in? Why has the British side... not mentioned this fact? We are talking about living organisms, and if toxic agents were used then living organisms must have suffered,” foreign ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said on Wednesday.

A UK government spokesman said: “When a vet was able to access the property, two guinea pigs had sadly died. A cat was also found in a distressed state and a decision was taken by a veterinary surgeon to euthanise the animal to alleviate its suffering. This decision was taken in the best interests of the animal and its welfare.”

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said the cat was found alive but in a distressed state at the house in Salisbury and a decision was taken to euthanise the animal.

“The property in Wiltshire was sealed as part of the police investigation,” a government spokesperson said.

“This decision was taken in the best interests of the animal and its welfare.”
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Britain has a long held reputation as a nation of animal lovers. Until the Tories get in.
 
Yeah I mean why wouldnt you send a vet to a possible grisly death for the sake of a couple of guinea pigs...
 
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