Streatham shooting: Man 'shot dead in the street' as police declare terror-related incident

[Dis86]

I'm thinking it needs someone with more substance than you've got there to sell a pitch for a life (or however long you believe) sentence for what he initially got jailed for as a teenager.

You're frothing about wanting a massive sentence while judging his actions retrospectively.

That's not how justice works so it needs you to explain how a massive sentence gets justified before the evidence to support it exists.

He got 3 years 4 months for collecting information and talking in favour of violent terror crime at the age of 18. That sounds like hard time for words but so be it.

According to your pre-crime punishment thinking, this should have been a life (or however long you believe) sentence because he later did commit a violent terror crime.

Again, Einstein, nobody mentioned pre-crime punishment - learn to use your eyes and actually read. I know you may find it hard, but please do try. He was found guilty of a terror related offence and let out of prison after only a year of a 3 year sentence and went on to commit this crime. We also had the last anus who went out and killed people released earlier than the full term allowed. That ended well, didn't it.
The maximum term, for minor terrorism offences, I believe is 6 years. Judges can start firing that out instead of 3. Maybe then they'll have time to go through some conditioning.

 

[Dis86]

Maybe this?

Are you stupid enough to believe that MPs select sentencing regulations without input from leading judges? I'll give you a clue here - the head of The Sentencing Council is Sir Holroyde. Have a look at his CV.

 

[Dis86]

And neither are the judges which is something our resident "the judges are soft" lot never seem to grasp

Incorrect. They are.

 

[Skunkworks]

And how much money and resources does it take to 'monitor' these people once released? Police are already stretched yet there were apparently armed police on his tail the whole time...

Maybe we need a Mosque tax. After all, we tax other dangerous things to offset their cost.

 

[Hotwired]

Again, Einstein, nobody mentioned pre-crime punishment - learn to use your eyes and actually read. I know you may find it hard, but please do try. He was found guilty of a terror related offence and let out of prison after only a year of a 3 year sentence and went on to commit this crime. We also had the last anus who went out and killed people released earlier than the full term allowed. That ended well, didn't it.
The maximum term, for minor terrorism offences, I believe is 6 years. Judges can start firing that out instead of 3. Maybe then they'll have time to go through some conditioning.

You're again showing lack of substance to sell the pitch to justify whacking up sentences.

While simultaneously deciding that these specific jail terms should be exempt for the usual early release rules.

He didn't actually harm anyone to get his initial 3 year 4 month sentence and the only thing you have is retrospective vision of violent terror crime which means you can be summed up as wanting pre-crime punishment which obviously is disproportionate to what crime has actually been committed.

You should already see how stupid it sounds. 6 years (with no early release option that people normally have) for a teenager guilty of collecting and advocating terror violence but not actually guilty of any violence.

 

[Dis86]

You're again showing lack of substance to sell the pitch to justify whacking up sentences.

While simultaneously deciding that these specific jail terms should be exempt for the usual early release rules.

He didn't actually harm anyone to get his initial 3 year 4 month sentence and the only thing you have is retrospective vision of violent terror crime which means you can be summed up as wanting pre-crime punishment which obviously is disproportionate to what crime has actually been committed.

You should already see how stupid it sounds. 6 years (with no early release option that people normally have) for a teenager guilty of collecting and advocating terror violence but not actually guilty of any violence.

Yes, its called a deterrent. Hit people hard for the crimes they do commit and it's proven to reduce reoffending. Short sentences are useless. Longer ones allow better rehabilitation.

Or shall we allow people to wander the street with guns and knives? I mean after all...unless you've used them you're not guilty of any violence.

 

[Hotwired]

Yes, its called a deterrent. Hit people hard for the crimes they do commit and it's proven to reduce reoffending. Short sentences are useless. Longer ones allow better rehabilitation.

Or shall we allow people to wander the street with guns and knives? I mean after all...unless you've used them you're not guilty of any violence.

We do not allow people to wander the street with knives (without legit reason) or guns in general. Or collect information on and advocate terror violence. There is a jail sentence available and no violence has to be committed.

The difference is you are advocating 4x the served jail sentence here with no changes in the facts available at the time of sentencing.

In fact by your standards we should max out everyones jail sentence if it was terror related and scrap the early release option and it's totally not a knee jerk retrospective view of specific individuals committing crime later.

Which just happens to mean a guaranteed multiplication of the cost to the government but no guarantee that this guy will drop his private thoughts to die in a suicidal terror attack.

You can't magically predict crime and reoffending when it comes to suicidal terror attacks isn't really a problem. If someone values their life as less than the impact they want to make by dying then how is a couple more years in lousy living conditions a fix.

The only thing you can guarantee with arbitrary sentence increases for minor crime is pushing any real problem down the line at enormous cost and less opportunity for those who do turn a new leaf.

 

[Dis86]

We do not allow people to wander the street with knives (without legit reason) or guns in general. Or collect information on and advocate terror violence. There is a jail sentence available and no violence has to be committed.

The difference is you are advocating 4x the served jail sentence here with no changes in the facts available at the time of sentencing.

In fact by your standards we should max out everyones jail sentence if it was terror related and scrap the early release option and it's totally not a knee jerk retrospective view of specific individuals committing crime later.

Which just happens to mean a guaranteed multiplication of the cost to the government but no guarantee that this guy will drop his private thoughts to die in a suicidal terror attack.

You can't magically predict crime and reoffending when it comes to suicidal terror attacks isn't really a problem. If someone values their life as less than the impact they want to make by dying then how is a couple more years in lousy living conditions a fix.

The only thing you can guarantee with arbitrary sentence increases for minor crime is pushing any real problem down the line at enormous cost and less opportunity for those who do turn a new leaf.

You're completely ignoring facts. I'll repeat, short sentences are proven to have no benefit on reducing reoffending. Longer sentences do. Ergo to protect the public longer sentences should be effected.

 

[dowie]

You can't magically predict crime and reoffending when it comes to suicidal terror attacks isn't really a problem. If someone values their life as less than the impact they want to make by dying then how is a couple more years in lousy living conditions a fix.

The only thing you can guarantee with arbitrary sentence increases for minor crime is pushing any real problem down the line at enormous cost and less opportunity for those who do turn a new leaf.

It isn't a minor crime though, it's rather serious. And like you said, you can't predict it - keeping them away from society for longer can help reduce the risk... in this case sure you'd not lock him up for life so there is still some risk, in other cases there are people who really shouldn't have been let out until they were old men at the minimum.

 

[Hotwired]

It isn't a minor crime though, it's rather serious. And like you said, you can't predict it - keeping them away from society for longer can help reduce the risk... in this case sure you'd not lock him up for life so there is still some risk, in other cases there are people who really shouldn't have been let out until they were old men at the minimum.

Minor crime is an echo of Dis86 previously using the term to reference this persons initial crime. I don't disagree with the term for what the initial crime actually was.

You're completely ignoring facts. I'll repeat, short sentences are proven to have no benefit on reducing reoffending. Longer sentences do. Ergo to protect the public longer sentences should be effected.

You don't seem to care for the facts I said about the certain penalties to society of arbitrarily longer sentences but feel free to reference short vs long sentences applying to a guy whose concealed reason for living was to die in a suicidal terror attack. Something he never did before, kept secret to get his early release, and will never re-offend either.

I need convincing that studies on reduced reoffending rates apply to suicidal terror crime. I have this feeling they don't.

 

[b00merang69]

Streatham attack the latest in growing list of terror incidents in UK

9 January 2020
Two inmates wearing fake suicide vests and armed with improvised blades are accused of attacking an officer at HMP Whitemoor.
Convicted terrorist Brusthom Ziamani, 24, has been named as one of the men allegedly involved. The second man is said to be a Muslim convert jailed for a violent offence.

29 November 2019
Two people were stabbed to death when a convicted terrorist launched a frenzied knife attack at an event in central London.
Usman Khan killed Cambridge graduates Jack Merritt and Saskia Jones at an event on prisoner rehabilitation called Learning Together.
The incident spilled out onto nearby London Bridge as former prisoners and members of the public tried to tackle Khan using a fire extinguisher and an ornamental whale tusk.
Police shot Khan, who was wearing a fake suicide vest, dead. It emerged that he had previously been jailed in 2012 for plotting a separate terrorist attack.

15 September 2017
Ahmed Hassan’s homemade bomb partially exploded on a London Underground rush hour train at Parsons Green, injuring more than 50 people. He was sentenced to life with a minimum jail term of 34 years.

19 June 2017
A group of Muslim worshippers were hit after a van slammed into them near Finsbury Park mosque, north London, after many of them had attended evening prayers during the holy month of Ramadan. One person died. Darren Osborne was jailed for at least 43 years after being found guilty of murder and attempted murder.

3 June 2017
Eight people were killed during a car and knife attack in London Bridge terror attack in central London.
Three men drove into pedestrians on the bridge and then stabbed people in nearby Borough Market.

22 May 2017
Around 10.30pm British-born Salman Ramadan Abedi, 22, walked into the foyer of Manchester Arena as crowds streamed out of an Ariana Grande concert and detonated a device packed with shrapnel, killing 22 people, including children.

22 March 2017
Five people were killed when an Islamist extremist launched a car and knife attack in central London.
Khalid Masood drove a hired car over Westminster Bridge, near the Houses of Parliament, mounted the pavement and hit pedestrians before crashing into railings outside the Palace of Westminster.
He stabbed PC Keith Palmer, 48, to death and also killed US tourist Kurt Cochran, Romanian tourist Andreea Cristea, 31, plus Britons Aysha Frade, 44, and 75-year-old Leslie Rhodes. Masood was shot dead by police.

16 June 2016
Labour MP Jo Cox was murdered outside her constituency office in Batley, west Yorkshire.
The mother of two, 41, was shot and stabbed multiple times by rightwing extremist Thomas Mair. He was later handed a whole-life prison sentence for her murder.

5 December 2015
A lone attacker attempted to behead a passenger during an Islamic State-inspired rampage in the ticket hall of Leytonstone Underground station in east London.
Somali-born Muhiddin Mire targeted strangers at random during the attack on 5 December 2015 before slashing fellow passenger Lyle Zimmerman, 56, with a knife.
Mire, who had schizophrenia, was sent to Broadmoor hospital after being given a life sentence with a minimum term of eight years for attempted murder.

22 May 2013
Fusilier Lee Rigby murdered by Islamic extremists Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale.
The 25-year-old serviceman was walking near his barracks in Woolwich, south-east London, when the pair rammed him with a car before attempting to decapitate him.
The killers were jailed for life at the Old Bailey in February 2014.

14 May 2010
Stephen Timms, MP for West Ham, was stabbed by Roshonara Choudhry during one his constituency surgeries. She became the first British person inspired by al-Qaida to try and assassinate a prominent figure on UK soil.
She was found guilty of attempted murder and jailed for life with a minimum term of 15 years.

30 June 2007
Two men inspired by Islamist extremism rammed a 4x4 laden with petrol and propane tanks into the main terminal of Glasgow airport. One of the attackers died in the incident and five people were injured.

7 July 2005
Four suicide bombers killed 52 and injured hundreds in blasts on the London Underground network and a bus.
Twenty-six died in the bombing at Russell Square on the Piccadilly line, six in the bombing at Edgware Road on the Circle line, seven in the bombing at Aldgate on the Circle line, and 13 in the bombing on a bus at Tavistock Square.



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...rror-incidents-in-uk/ar-BBZzDj3?ocid=msedgntp

 

[Amnesia]

You should already see how stupid it sounds. 6 years (with no early release option that people normally have) for a teenager guilty of collecting and advocating terror violence but not actually guilty of any violence.

I feel you're being too kind to the killer, he was trying to get his girlfriend(weird he had one) to chop her parents heads off.
In the states a woman(Dalia Dippolito) tried to hire a hitman to kill her husband and she was sentenced to 16 years and i think she had a far better chance of reform than this guy.

 

[NVP]

Where do we put radical Islamists? In jail where their hatred can grow, have their beliefs championed or even used to convert others?


What can we do to help our brainwashed citizens in the first place? Chinese style re-education camps?


It seems to me that prison is not the way to handle these extremists.


I'm dreading the torrent of "just kill them", hoping for an actual, realistic discussion as the same methods could be used for the cesspit of football racists congregating in neo-nazi circles too

 

[Em3bbs]

Rather than baiting people @NVP - what would you suggest?

 

[lunar]

I am rather confused.
Why should this person be under surveillance if he is not a threat to society?

 

[Amnesia]

The police clearly felt he was and they were right.

 

[NVP]

Rather than baiting people @NVP - what would you suggest?

Sigh.


If you think my post was baiting then you should perhaps adjust your "offended by" list. I've outlined the discussion point and posed my question, if I had an answer it would be within that post. ******* hell.

 

[Kainz]

Just learnt that the geezer was from my ends too. Born and bred here (Harrow) and the missus and I are already looking away from this area for a place to live. It’s just overrun and not safe even during daytimes.

 

[Dis86]

Minor crime is an echo of Dis86 previously using the term to reference this persons initial crime. I don't disagree with the term for what the initial crime actually was.



You don't seem to care for the facts I said about the certain penalties to society of arbitrarily longer sentences but feel free to reference short vs long sentences applying to a guy whose concealed reason for living was to die in a suicidal terror attack. Something he never did before, kept secret to get his early release, and will never re-offend either.

I need convincing that studies on reduced reoffending rates apply to suicidal terror crime. I have this feeling they don't.

I never said it was a minor crime. Under the terrorism regs it's classed as a minor terrorist offence.

 

[Roar87]

You should already see how stupid it sounds. 6 years (with no early release option that people normally have) for a teenager guilty of collecting and advocating terror violence but not actually guilty of any violence.

Yes?

 

[Hotwired]

I feel you're being too kind to the killer, he was trying to get his girlfriend(weird he had one) to chop her parents heads off.
In the states a woman(Dalia Dippolito) tried to hire a hitman to kill her husband and she was sentenced to 16 years and i think she had a far better chance of reform than this guy.

I don't see how you're making that call without retrospective vision.

It's a teenager running their mouth and getting involved with illegal information vs a woman offering $7000 to a "hitman" to murder her husband as a means to get his wealth.

I don't see a certain killing attempt on the same level as what this guy was initially jailed for. Teenagers do dumb stuff, he'd not proven the capacity to carry out the violent acts the sentence was meant to discourage.

With retrospective vision, yes, the woman who was caught out doing something she never wanted known is more likely to "reform" than the guy who kept (or even increased, prison is a **** hole) his motivation to be a suicidal martyr but it's obviously a flawed analysis if you're justifying it in reverse while holding the evidence that he did eventually commit a violent terror crime.